Lighting for Profits - Episode 193

This week on the show we welcome Andy Thomas, whose’s story is one of resilience, reinvention, and relentless passion for landscape lighting. With over two decades in the industry—from distribution to design—Andy has not only mastered his craft but become a guiding light for others. Tune in as he shares his journey, lessons learned, and how he's helping shape the future of lighting professionals one connection at a time.

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Episode Transcript

If you're looking to start or grow your landscape lighting business, this show is for you

Welcome to Lighting for Profits.

All light, all light, all light.

Powered by Emory Allen. Here is your host, Ryan Lee.

Oh, light, a light. All light. Let's talk lighting. Let's talk business. Let's try to figure out how to get world peace. I don't know. We'll figure it out. But guys, I'm excited to be here. If you're looking to start or grow your landscape lighting business, you're definitely in the right place. Today's gonna be one of those technical shows. So if you are like, man, you know what, I feel like I can do this, but I need some help. I need some technical help. How do I get lights in certain areas and stuff like that? We've got Mr. Andy Thomas with Viewpoint Lighting coming on the show. He's been on the show before, but we're gonna, we're gonna get super technical here. So if you, or your text need some help, figuring some shiz out, that's what we're gonna do. I don't know if you guys are aware, but we are still trending as the number one landscape lighting show in Sacramento, California. So pretty big feat. it's not easy, but, you know, we do what we can. Number one kind of crazy. Hey, by the way, guys, thank you so much. We've had a few more people give us those five star reviews that I'm always asking for. So if you have not, maybe now's a good time. You just go open up the app, you go to like, Apple, and then you click the five stars and you write something nice. That's how you do it. And, if you do good things in life, sometimes, not always, sometimes they come around and, people do good things for you. So, if you want me to give you a five star review, well, then come do lighting for me first. Actually, I'm trying to figure this out, guys. Can you help me figure it out? Because I want to do lights in my backyard. I'm trying to figure out. I want to do rgb, but I don't know what brand to pick because, like, let's face it, I've already got garden light lights around my house. I want to do something different, but I don't want to. I'm friends with, like, a lot of manufacturers now and distributors, and I don't want to, like, make anyone mad and I kind of don't want to do the install. So I don't know, should I just hire Keith? Keith is here in Utah. You just hire Keith. I just, I don't Want to install them, but I do need lights in my backyard. So, I just want to thank you guys for your support, even if I do try to make you feel guilty for not giving me reviews. But, thank you guys so much for your support. This show is a blast. It's amazing, that we have such good guests and he's been on the show before. He's willing to come back again, and it just adds so much value to the. To the lighting community, so. Super grateful for that.

I started flying first class about five years ago because of a couple reasons

so real quick, before we have Andy on, I want to share this story. real quick. So I, for those of you that don't know, I started flying first class, on airplanes about five years ago because of a couple reasons. Number one, it started to annoy me. I would walk past first class. I'm like, these people are annoying. And so I wanted to try it, and I wanted to see, like, why?

What's.

What's the big deal? And, you know, a lot of times you can get it with miles and stuff like that. But, like, I'll, like, pay for a first class ticket. And, man, when you do it once, you're addicted, because my. My levels of anxiety when I walk into an airport are pretty high. And you get closer to people, and it's just, like, annoying. And especially if you get the middle seat and, like, I don't know, it's annoying. So I started flying first class, and I love it, and I highly recommend it. And one of the things I found is, like, yeah, it costs more money. But then what I did was I forced myself in my business to grow by more to pay for it. Does that make sense? Like, when you. When you start living a different life and live a different standard or whatever, and this goes both ways. If you decide that you want to live on less, you can, and you can make less. Like, it goes both ways. I chose the other way, and I'm like, okay, what do I have to do to make an extra $20,000 a year so that I can fly first class? Or I don't even know what the number is, but it's a number. Okay. Anyway, I don't even know. I'm telling you that. Oh, here's why. Because we went on vacation last week. or, yeah, went on vacation for spring break with my family. Okay. And we wanted to go somewhere cool because we were like, hey, let's do a cool summer trip. Well, we can't do a cool summer trip because the kids all have weird summer stuff. And we're like, yeah, Ah, it's probably not going to happen, but let's do something cool for spring break. So we decided to go to Cabo. Well, we started looking and figuring out how we're going to book this trip and stuff for the six of us. We got four kids and it's freaking expensive. So we found, this all inclusive package through. I think it was Expedia. they're not paying me to say that they should, but we bought this package for the six of us and it included airfare, and it was a direct flight on Delta from Salt Lake City to Cabo. I'm like, dude, this is dope. And it's got all inclusive and the rooms look nice. We had to get two rooms because, you know, decided to have more kids than most people. And, it was great. We bought it. We're stoked. And then we get the, the, the airline tickets, and I log into my Delta account, I put in my number, and I'm like, wait a minute, like, we don't even have seats. It said we had seats, but we didn't have seats. And I was like, well, I want to, I want to, like, upgrade so I can, like, maybe get in Delta Comfort plus or first class or something like that. I couldn't do it. It literally wouldn't let me. And I was like, what if I pay and I call in? They're like, no, because the way you booked it, you, you have like the cheap ass ticket and like, you're poor so we don't let you do stuff. And I'm like, okay, well, that's annoying. So we sat in different areas of the airplane. So luckily, like, my youngest was, able to sit with Lindsay, but, like, all the other kids were just, we were just like, random throughout this plane. And, I'm sitting on the plane and I was like, ah, well, I guess I'll listen to a book. And so I listened to this book, which I highly recommend. It's called the, Four Agreements. I think it's just called the Four Agreements. And, really good book. And honestly, I could do a whole, like, series of podcasts on it and how I'm going to implement the things that I learned and why I need to be a better person and all this other stuff. But in the book, the author mentioned this, 10,000 hour rule, and he didn't create the 10,000 hour rule. The 10,000 hour rule was popularized by Malcolm Gladwell, in his book Outliers. And have you guys heard of this? The 10,000 hour rule? It's basically like if you want to become an expert in something, if you want to become a professional, you need 10,000 hours, in that field in order to become an expert. So you think about landscape lighting, you go do your first install, you typically don't feel like an expert because you're lucky if everything works out right. so here's why I'm sharing this. what it says is the rule suggests that reaching world class expertise in a particular skill or field requires approximately 10,000 hours of focused, purposeful practice. Now what a lot of people hear is 10,000 hours. Well, I need, if I want to reach world class expertise and I want to be a world class lighting designer, a world class lighting company, whatever, I need 10,000 hours. And when you guys do the math, okay, 40 hours a week. And let's say some of you guys are like, Well, I work 80 hours a week. I'm, twice as good as you. Well, whatever it is, if you're working 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, it's about. The average person works about 2,000 hours in a year. Again, some of you are overachievers and you're working 4,000, but let's just go off at 2,000 hours a year. So after five years you get 10,000 hours. Okay, math is math. So most of us think that after five years we're experts at something. But here's why I want to push back. Here's why I'm telling you this, because what we think is true is not always true. And I'm not going to get political here, but it doesn't really matter, like if you're talking politics, if you're talking lighting design, installation, business, like whatever your version of reality is, is your version of reality. So I can respect that, that you do think that your truth is your truth, but sometimes it's just not true. And so we think we're experts in something because we've been doing it for a long time. We think, well, I've been doing this over five years, of course I'm an expert. and you might be more of an expert compared to someone who's only been doing it two years.

How much, how much time do you dedicate to your craft

But here's where I want to push back that 2,000 hours. And let's say you're working 3,000 hours, 4,000 hours, whatever it is, per year. How much of that time is actually, and I highlighted focused, purposeful practice. How much, how much time do you dedicate to your craft? Of let's just take out lighting design, like how much of your day, of your week, of your month, of your year are you spending learning lighting design and practicing purposefully? Lighting design? How much of that are you an actual technician and focus purposeful practice of actually installation. How much of from a sales standpoint, let's say just sales, the sales aspect, how about being a leader or a manager? There's all these different areas to our business. So yes, while a lot of us after five years have 10,000 hours, like we should have our reps and we should be an expert, reality is like we're just getting started because on any given day, how many hours are you focused and purposefully practicing your lighting design skills? Is it really happening just because you're working 10 hours a day? It might only happen 45 minutes of the day. Right. And so the reason I'm sharing this is because a lot of us expect exceptional results. We're like, dude, we're experts, we know what we're doing. What the heck? Why are we not getting better results? And it's because we're wearing all these hats. We're all we're, we're trying to do too many things all in an 8 or 12 hour period, all in a 2000, a 3000 hour workload of a year. And we're expecting things that's just not real. And so if you want to become that, that expert, that world class expertise in a particular skill or field, you just need more reps. And because we can't create more time, okay, it's not like I can just add an eighth day a week. I've thought about it, I've tried, I just can't figure it out. We have, we have to play with the cards that were dealt. And so this is where you have to get specific and intentional on your business and say, okay, let's say I do want to get better at sales. What has to be true? Well, I can't be out in the field doing installs. And maybe you want to get better at installs. Well then you can't be doing sales. Maybe you want to focus, in and be a better lighting designer. How much time are you dedicating to that particular skill? And when you really sketch this out and write it down and map out your day and you guys can do this, you can journal out what you do hour by hour. You're not spending 10,000 hours on most anything because you're busy doing too many different things. So I want to encourage you to one, be aware of this. That's step number one. Then two, get intentional and figure out what it is that you want to become an expert at. What is something that you want to be known that like that is the guy. Okay. Like, Andy's coming on in a couple minutes. I look at him as, like, that's the guy. Like, if I have a question and I need to know an answer with like technical stuff, landscape, lighting, I feel like he's the guy. He's like the world class expertise, right? what is it that you want to be known for? What is it that, that you would be happy to, to, to. To be known as the expert as. And then start asking yourself that question. What has to be true for that to become a reality? How are you going to get your 10,000 hours in, in 10,000 hours from now instead of 30, 40, 50,000 hours from now? Because in reality, if you don't get intentional, you don't get focused. It's going to take you 25 years of unfocused, effort to get your 5,000 hours of expertise in a particular skill. I don't know if that made sense to you. It did in my head, but now that I'm saying it out loud, I'm thinking this might not make sense. So I hope it does. just something I was thinking about because I could not fly first class and I tried, I tried to upgrade. I couldn't do it. So back with the peasants. Back to normal life now. I'm telling you guys, like, first class for me has, has made a difference. It's it's my anxiety levels are lower. Like, it's just, it's just a different experience. So, for me it was like, hey, what has to be true for me, for me to be able to do this? Okay, well, I got to grow my business. I gotta do more marketing, I gotta do more sales. I gotta put more effort, more energy into it. And it works out. Unless you buy a group package and you're taking your family to Cabo for spring break. Alright, guys. Well, hey, what sets Emery Allen apart? Well, bulbs aside, they believe customer satisfaction should be the top priority. Always. Emory Allen goes out of their way to ensure lighting professionals have access to the best light sources built with the highest quality components suited specifically for the landscape, lighting and industry. At the end of the day, it's what's on the inside that counts. So take advantage of Emory Allen's world class customer service. Get 10% off your first order. All you need to do is email tomgmryallen. com Remember, they do offer that discounted contractor pricing. So don't go to their website and just remember this email, because if you email tom gmeryallen. com you're going to get the homie hookup. You're going to get that discount. Just mentioned that you heard about him here on Lighting for profits. Again, that's tom g. @emoryalen. com.

Andy Thomas: Normally everything's perfect. We have systems, we have all this stuff

okay, well, now the reason you're all here is, time to get our guests coming on. So, if you guys have questions, feel free to reach out. If not, just join our program and you can ask questions whenever you want. Let's go. Welcome to the show, Mr. Andy Thomas.

What's up?

How are you, sir?

I'm good, thanks. Dude.

Thanks for jumping on here, man. I appreciate it.

Well, you know, got nothing better to do?

Not running a business, you know, not. Not being a dad, not being a husband, you know, not.

Not putting out fires, not trying to track down fixtures, not trying to solve problems. Yeah, no, let's drop everything and talk to this Yahoo for a while.

I love it. Well, I mean, in, in full transparency. I mean, you know, talking about some of those things just to get this show going. I thought I had it all figured out. And then I go to start the show, I'm like, wait, there's, there's no link. It's not set up. Normally everything's perfect. We have systems, we have all this stuff. Well, guess what? Systems break. People forget stuff. Things don't get done. And that's, that's the reality of the situation.

Yeah, I mean, best laid plans and all, you know, it was on the calendar. There was just no link to join anything. So, hey, we'll, we'll figure it out.

Springtime is a good time to work on your business

Well, how the heck you been, man?

I've been good. actually, things are starting to pick up. It's springtime, weather's turning, it's gonna be 80 degrees tomorrow. you know, so, so, so things are starting to pick up. The phone's starting to ring and it's. It's been a long, boring winter. but yeah, I've been working on my business, you know, trying to get stuff lined up and ready to rock. Because when, when the phone does start ringing, I don't have time to work in the business, on the business because I'm working in it. So, yeah, I want to. It's been good to have a little bit of downtime to work on that.

That's a good point. I mean, I, I sometimes just like to complain and be like, ah, you know, I'm depressed.

We all do.

It's dark outside. It's cold. So it's. It's fun to complain, but it honestly is a good time to work on your business. What.

Every year, things slow down during the winter at Viewpoint Lighting

What are some things that you did in the downtime that you think you wouldn't have had time, you know, right now or two months from now?

Yeah, I mean, so like, every year, things slow down during the winter. It's. It's common. Yeah. The phone doesn't ring as much in the winter as it does in the summer. So in the winter, in the past, it's. Well, just kind of scale things back. We'll, you know, cut the hours down for the guys. We won't take on as many projects. I'll spend more time watching TV and catching up on binging on Netflix and, you know, scrolling Facebook. but this year, I've been a lot more intentional on, like, okay, what do I need to do to actually become a better, bigger business? And how do I get the phone to ring more during this. During this slow time? So that's what I've been working on is, you know, I hired a V.A. so my virtual assistant is working on Facebook marketing stuff. So if you're, you know, follow Viewpoint Lighting on Facebook, you're getting blasted every day with a new post. you know, things like that that, you know, trying to get all of our processes documented and systematized so that when we do get busy, I gotta hire guys on. I could just hand them a training manual and say, here, here's everything. My guys have been writing all this stuff down. Now hit the ground running. and instead of, okay, just on the job training and trying to get people to get caught up, like, here's all the stuff you need to know right off the bat. Go home, do your homework. Now we'll. Now we'll get you going. So it's been a lot of that kind of stuff of like, how do I. How do I learn from some of these other dudes that have been doing it for a while? you know, what are their systems? What kind of software do I need to get signed up for all that back end stuff that I should have been doing 20 years ago, but starting to do now?

That's awesome. Well, you mentioned a VA for those that don't know, it's virtual assistant.

not Veterans Assistant Administration. That's what I thought when I first heard I got to hire a vet. All right.

I guess that's what everyone does these days. You just get a vet and your business explodes. What do they do nothing? You just pay your respects? Yeah.

Just, you know, give them away.

You know, in, in Utah here, there's public, land. Utah public land. And you know what it's called? It's called the blm. And, and I was like, black Lives Matter. That's weird, I guess, because Utah is kind of like a white state. So I think it would make sense to be like, hey, let's show them that we've got land. It's m. Black Lives Matter land. You know, like, let's make sure we go the other way here. But no Bureau of Land Management.

Yeah, yeah, I did know that one. You know, I had, did some work in the federal government, so I didn't know I had to learn Smacker.

Now you knew about black lives that matter in Utah. Cool.

but yeah, like back to your point of, you know, the expert saying, and there is a term for, you know, some of that stuff you're talking about, the Dunning Kruger effect is, you know, kind of the more, you know, the less you know. so the more experience you gain in that kind of 10,000 hours at the five year mark. That's kind of where I was to, you know, when I got into the industry, started my own business. Well, I've been in the industry for a while, but I started my own business and I was about five years in and I thought, I'm pretty much an expert. I'm probably the best in my market right now, even knowing that there's guys with more experience in my market. and then I went to the AOLP conference, my first conference in San Antonio, and realized, oh, I don't know anything. There's people that actually do know stuff, and I need to start actually working on getting better and becoming, you know, the expert that I want to be. So, yeah, so to your point, it's, you know, you can put in the time, but you, if you're just putting in time, you're not doing the things you need to actually do to be the person you need to do. You need to put in the time on the things.

Yeah.

Not just spending time, spend time on, on that. Do your homework, follow through, follow up, learn from those people. If you don't have an answer, go find it or go find the guy with it. And so I've worked For the last 15 years on trying to be the guy with the answers or know the guys that do.

Yeah, well, you know, and owning these businesses is not easy. You're doing so many different things, wearing so many different hats. So it takes 15 years to become an expert at something at one of the things.

I mean, you look at it and you look at how many idiots out there like myself that are running businesses, you think, well, it can't be that hard. He's doing it. So like it. but you can, I mean, that's the good thing is there's enough profit margin in there that you can fake it for a long time and really be bad at it, but still make a living. so yeah, it's kind of a catch 22 there, which is why so many people jump into the industry. It's because, well, you know, know, because they see how many dumb dumbs are out there making a killing at it. But yeah, no, I'm finally to the point now where I, where I can actually make some money and pay my bills. So, so that's, that's a comfortable place to be.

I've been impressed with your activity these last couple years

Well, dude, I mean, personally, I've been impressed with your activity these last couple years. I've gotten to know it you more, I've gotten to see it closer and I think I'm just so respectful of it because it's, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Right? And if you were like, it's, it's almost easier with these younger guys where they come and they're hungry. I'm like, I expect them to like, yeah, you're just gonna follow this step by step. But with you, I was like, like, to be honest, I'm like, man, I don't know, is he even gonna do this stuff? Because it's actually easier not to. And you know that, like, that's why you just.

Oh yeah.

Most people just don't change, but man, like just even, you know, you mentioned hiring a va. Like it, it would have been easier in the short term to not do that.

Sure.

You've had to put in extra work, extra effort. You're having to think outside the box. Put. You have to come up with things for them to do, lay them out, do all that. But long term, it's going to be freaking epic. So it's, it's cool to see you making these moves.

Yeah. And that's, that's the scary thing. And, and the really, the trepidation, at everything that we do in a business. It's, we're so used to just being the guy that does everything. Like, I'll, I'll just. Well, somebody needs to answer the phone. I'll. I'll answer the phone. Somebody needs to design this. I'll Design it, I'll sell it, I'll install it, I'll follow up, I'll maintain it, I'll, you know, it's, I will do every little thing and, and then to get, you know, hiring your first person, like, I did it on my own for a while and then I'd have, you know, family member help out, whatever. but hiring my first full time employee, it was like, it's just so much easier just to do it myself because like it, just to have to explain to somebody, here's how you do it and then watch them mess it up and then fix it and like, oh, this is just such a time consuming process of getting somebody up to the point where they can do it halfway decent. You know, they're never going to get to your level. But you know, like Dan Martell says, you know, 80 by somebody else is 100. Awesome. So like, if I can get that guy to, to 80%, you know, that's, that's super, you know, and now I can go do something else. So. But just getting them to that, to that point where they're able to take on some of it, it's like, I don't want to have to do that. I don't want to have to write all this stuff down. I don't want to have to spend the time on it. I'll just do it myself.

Yeah.

And then it's, but that's short term. That's short term thinking and that's limiting in how far you can go physically. You just get burned out and then, and you can only grow to a certain point because you can only reach so far before you just run out of grasp and run out of time, run out of energy.

Is that what happened to you? Are you just like, you know what, I'm just sick of doing the same thing over and over. I like you. Did you hit this like, back against the wall thing or.

No. I mean like I, I, I burn out every, you know, maybe twice, three times a year. You know, I just like, I'll be going and going and going and then realize I don't, I don't want to do this anymore today. And then, and then I just don't. And then I dial back. And then I just veg out and watch Netflix Tahoe. And then. Yeah, and then, or else be like, I, I just got to hit the road. I'll head to Tahoe for a few days and just try to read, you know, recharge my batteries and then gain some perspective. Like okay, no, no, I've got this. We can do this. Let's get back into it. no, what really was the. The impetus for me was having guys that I am responsible for, you know, having three guys on my crew that work full time year round. And when things slow down, like, I've got to scramble to try to keep them busy because I'm responsible for their livelihoods. So I owe it to them to take this seriously, because, I mean, if it were just me, you know, I'd be fine just, you know, not working.

Exactly.

And my wife be like, whatever. you don't make enough money to justify the amount of time you put into this anyway, so, you know, why. Why bother? So. So that was. That was really what it was, is like, I. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to stagnate. I don't want to kind of try to keep it where I am at, because that's kind of where my head was. Like, well, I'll just pick a number. You know, this is what our sales goal is. Like, say, okay, let's just do a half million a year and then just hold there forever. And that's fine. But it's not, because eventually you get more projects to come in, and you want to do those projects, but you don't have time because that'll take you over the half million. And then now you need the guys to be able to get those jobs. So I don't want to turn those away. So now I got to bring in more guys. Now I got to keep them busy year round because I don't want to lay them off. It's. Yeah. Endless cycle.

You hired a veteran to help you develop new systems for your company

So.

So when you hired this va, were you, were you nervous? Like, I don't know if I have enough stuff to keep them busy.

Yeah, absolutely. Like, that was. That was the first thing was, yeah, I want to get. I want to offload some of the menial tasks and try to get them doing some of the things I know I should be doing. and so, like, I want to bring in this guy. You know, I hired a guy named Ronyl. he's in the Philippines. You know, super nice guy, good English, good communication. and I was like, well, I feel bad bringing him on because I'm hiring him full time. Like, he needs 40 hours a week, and I'm gonna give him five hours. And then, you know, I am probably three days into it thinking, I need to hire another one. I've got so much stuff I'm dumping on them, like, It's. It's pretty crazy how you start thinking all the little things that you do that you don't really need to do, that you can just offload all of. All these little things that either you're. You're doing and it's just eating up time or you should be doing because you don't have. But you aren't because you don't have enough time. So that list is endless. Always something more.

And where was the, I'm assuming you had all the SOPs written, you had exactly what their job duty was, and then they just followed the script, right?

No, I mean, I. I started. I knew I wanted to hire somebody, whether it was somebody local or. Or a va. Once I figured out what that was.

You knew you wanted a veteran?

Yeah, I was, you know, I was looking on the Craigslist for. For a veteran that. You know, one. You know, I wanted Lieutenant Dan to earn my books, but, you know, so, yeah, I. I knew I wanted to do that. So I started documenting some of the stuff that I do, like payroll. What are the steps that I go through to do payroll, and what are the steps that I do for, you know, whatever it is, invoicing or. Or onboarding new clients? What. You know, what is the onboarding client script? Like, what do I. What questions do I need to ask? Like, what do I just do naturally? I don't write in. I didn't have any of that stuff written down. I just. When somebody calls me up and says, hey, I, want to do some lights, my coy. Here's the stuff that I know to go through my head of the questions that I need to ask. You know, where are you? How long you been there? You know, all those. Those time. You know, what. How'd you hear about us? You know, those things that I just instinctually know because I've been doing it for so long. How do I document that so I can hand it off to somebody else so he can ask the same questions, get the same information? so, yeah, I started on that, but I certainly didn't have any of those systems in place.

Yeah. So then what's that process been like? Because again, you had. You had a couple because you knew, okay, I got to at least have something for him on day one. But then soon you're like, okay, there's the two scripts I have written out. talk to us about that experience of how he is helpful in kind of developing these systems as you go.

So that's. That's part of it, is you know, I'm a lighting guy. I'm not a systems guy. I'm not a sales person. I'm not a marketing person. I don't do a lot of. I mean, I fumble my way through some of that stuff, but I'm not. I don't get into the weeds on it, and I don't even know what questions asked. I don't know what software is out there. So that's where he comes in. He's like, oh, yeah? Well, you just use this. Like, I don't. Do I just give you all my passwords? He's like, no, no, you just set up LastPass and do that, and then that way I can set all. So just knowing the software that's out there and the terminology that's out there. And he's like, oh, no, I'll just do that. It's like, oh, yeah, here's how you do it. And then now we've got something. I've been using the Google Drive for a long time for all of my project folders and so on. Now we have procedures and processes. And so now we just have a Google Doc in that drive for, like, all the different processes that we're working on. And it's not a lot yet, but we're still working on it.

Dude, I love it, man. That's so good. that's the thing. Like, there's. There's other people out there that are better than us at things. Like, we don't have to be. We don't have to be the best entrepreneur and the salesperson and the admin and the systems guy and the installer and the maintenance guy. Like, we just. There's no way we're going to be that good at everything.

No, I mean, we're trying to. You know, I'm a designer, so I'm selling myself as much as I am the design.

You're talking about getting some lights at your house. How are you getting that in Utah

I need people to trust me. Then they'll trust that I know what I'm talking about, then they'll see the pictures, and then they're on board. So. But, you know, but that's kind of the limit of, you know, I know the technical stuff, and I know. I know the design stuff, but everything beyond that, I'm sure I could hire, you know, Joe Schmo off the street, and he could do half the stuff that I do better than I can. So why not hire Joe Schmo? You know, I don't have to worry about it.

That's awesome, man. Well, again, congrats on what you're doing. I know you're making other moves and stuff, so it's. It's exciting to see, man.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it has. It has been slow the last couple months. You're talking about getting some lights at your house. Like, I've literally had guys, ah. Working my crew, working at my house this past week and week and a half just because we. We're kind of in between projects. Like, you know what? I got product on the shelf. My yard's dark once you guys start with lights in my yard, so I highly recommend it. you can't hire Keith. You can't afford that guy.

I know. He's literally raised his prices so much, I'm like, damn it, I gotta go find someone else.

You should have. Yeah, you should have hired him before he joined.

I seriously should have. He's charged. He's charging rates that I'm like, even me, dude. I'm like the mindset guy. And I'm like, dang, dude, how you. How are you getting that in Utah? This is like the DIY state, so. Right. Yeah, you're right. I was always like, well, how about when you're slow? He's like, I'm not slow. I'm like, geez.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I'll fly my guys out there. We'll take care.

I know. I'm like, what's happened to me? Like, I used to like this stuff, but, like, I don't even want to do a YouTube video to show people how to do connections. I'm like, I just want to, like, snap my fingers, pay someone some money, and then it's done.

Right.

I'm lazy. So that's.

That's. That's been. That's been. The change of mindset for me as well, is like, well, why do I have to do this when I've got. You know, I'll just tell somebody else to do it now it just gets done. I can do something else. Like, that's. That's a great place to be.

Yeah, I know. Like, part of me is like, no, dude, be the YouTube guy. Make the video. It'll be good for business. But then I'm like, I just need some lights in my backyard. Like, I, don't want to do.

The video, turn it into a whole thing. Yeah.

Then I have to film it, then I have to reshoot it, and then I got to edit it. That sounds like a project. I just want to have badass lights in my backyard.

Yeah, yeah, I know where you're at. Yeah, you can get the shoes.

You guys do RGB lights.

We don't do much. I mean I've got some in my yard just because I did my neighbor's house behind me. And that's all, almost all rgb. just because it has the architecture for it. It's kind of a, Santa Barbara feel, sort of mid century modern kind of thing.

What product did you use?

I've got some Lumion. Oh. So hers was all FX zdc.

Okay.

which is I highly recommend just because it's easy to set up and program and change and cloud based control and scheduling and like user interfaces, you know, better than anybody else's that I found.

Yeah.

but yeah, so that, that's, that's kind of my go to if we're gonna do a full like ZDC system. Otherwise if we're just gonna do some color then you know, like I've got some chameleon, you know, brilliance chameleon stuff in the yard. I've got some, you know, Lumion, you know, set it and forget it kind of color change stuff that. But yeah, so we don't do a ton of color. because it's usually kind of cheesy. Unless it's the right application. I mean, you're kind of cheesy.

Are you calling me out like, what's happening?

I know you have to have a certain type of architecture for it to work. Because if you have a traditional like ranch house and it's you know, you know, built in the 50s, you know, like my place and it's like it doesn't work. It doesn't, you know, I don't like it.

About October, we launched a new phase to landscape lighting secrets

It's mainly just the trees and it is just the trees actually. And then I'm like, maybe I don't need it. Like I've got like, I can't remember the. It's like a blue out. I got three blue atlases that I want to do like a cooler temperature and then I just got a bunch of like evergreens, whatever they're called, I can't think of right now. But, but then I'm like, no, it'd be cool just for like parties and stuff like that. Just to be able to change the colors. So that's all it is.

And since we know it's out there and we know what's possible. Yeah. I don't recommend color every night for all, all, you know, year round for most things. But for some occasions, like my neighbors, warm white for most of the time, but like at 9 o'clock it goes to party theme, and then it, you know, just runs color for an hour and then goes back to white, which is kind of cool. That's. That's all I wanted, so.

Yeah, well, I don't know.

Yeah, there's too many options out there.

I know. I. I was like, oh, because I was. I was doing. I did some strip lighting, behind the pool, and then I was like, oh, I got to do my lighting. And then I got cold and I forgot and all that. So I'm like, oh, crap, it's spring. Weather's good. I got to get lights. So. Yeah, that's. That's. The average homeowner right now is getting back. Oh, yeah. I. I'm not depressed anymore, and I want to go outside and I want lights. So everyone's going to start to get busy.

That's. That's what we're hoping for. You know, go outside and realize it's dark.

So you. You've been running, since October. About October, we launched a new phase to landscape lighting secrets. We also launched Lighting Academy, where we have basically, twice a month, there's a lighting installation call, which you run. Then there's a lighting design call, which Patrick Harders runs. And so almost every week, there's an opportunity to jump on a call with somebody and get, design support, get installation support. how's that going? How is that going from, like, the first call to where is it at now?

So, yeah, I mean, the storyline has. Has been. And so for, you know, anybody that hasn't been on and wants to know, like, you know, how this sausage is made, you know, basically, Ryan set up the sort of outline. Here's the topic, and then there's a couple videos that he had produced. And so we'll show that video, and then we'll discuss that, and I'll kind of throw in my notes and my experience and what works for me, and then we'll make fun of the video and Ryan's technique of doing things.

like this is how not to do it. Exactly.

It's like, okay, well, that he just showed you what to do to start a fire. So the first few was like, obviously it's just getting off the ground. So there weren't a whole lot of people on. So it was mostly just me talking and trying to fill space. the very first one was just, you know, me and Darcy. Good questions out there. So. So that was. That was actually good. but now we've built up a bit of a following. We're. We're, you Know, usually somewhere between eight and 12 people on the call, which is, which is a decent number. So people can actually get, you know, get some questions in. but now, like, we still have the video, we still have a topic to discuss, but often, like the last couple, we, you know, we ran out of time. We didn't even get to it. So. Because we're, I try to open off, you know, the, the zoom.

Determine: Lighting Academy is providing a ton of value

With what, what kind of questions you guys have? Like, what if you're out there in the field and you've got a project and you don't know how to solve a problem? Write it down, come to that call and let's work it out. Let's, let's, you know, I'll give you my take on it. There's some other people in the, in the class that have, have, some experience with it or may have just tackled it some other way. And so we'll try to get you a few different perspectives on, you know, if you got a cat to skin, I'll. I'll show you a couple different ways to do it. So, so yeah, it's been, it's been really good to have that sort of interplay with, with some people that have some real world questions, and real world problems that we can try to tackle. Because if they've got the problem, chances are, I probably have an answer because I probably had to solve the same, same problem. And there's probably somebody else out there that's gonna have the same problem if they don't have it already. So that's what we just do, is we just get on there and just kind of just talk it through. you know, I'll share my screen and I'll go through and find products and like, here's the tool you need and here's the splice you need. And here's the, here's the process and here's the person and here's all the things that you need. Need to go back out and get that done and not fall, on your face.

Yeah, dude, it's, it's been incredible. It's like open office hours with someone who actually knows what they're talking about. Instead of watching a video of me, pretend to know what I'm talking about. That's how to start a fire.

Yeah, I mean, the video is good. It gives us a baseline and it gives us, it gives us some talking points. Because I can go back through that video and take my notes and say, okay, well, here's what he was talking about when he mentioned this, and here's, you know, here's the thing. He said that was actually technically wrong, but it's. That's the industry. You know, the technical term is not a wire. It's a, cable. And it's, you know, this is one of these wires. Keep saying wires. Well, there's different terms for the different things. There's a conductor, there's a cable, there's wire, there's insulation. There's all the different. Like, just breaking down.

Yeah. Like I said, wire.

Yeah. So it's knowing and part of it just, you know, if you know the terminology and you're talking to somebody, if you have a question and if you know the terminology, you can answer a more pointing or you can ask a better question, because then people are going to know what you're asking. But also, if you know the terminology and you know what you're talking about, if you're talking to a client and you're selling a job and you can use the proper terminology, it just makes you sound smarter. And people want to hire smart people. So that's. That's where we're at.

Yeah. Well said. Well, I love that you're doing it. And it's. It's providing a ton of value. people are learning the. The correct terminology. they're getting unstuck. you know, it's. I feel like the new guys that come in, they get hung up on design, and they get hung up on install, which is why we have that, like, the main part of Lighting Academy. They don't know what lights to use. They don't know where to put them. And then all of a sudden, they get a call and someone's like, hey, do you do, we've got lights. Can you fix ours? And, like, troubleshooting, that's. That's hard to teach, you know, like, that's. That's a hard thing to teach. When people ask you questions about that, like, what. What do you do? What do you start? If someone has a light out, where do you start your troubleshooting?

So I created a flowchart, which we're working on polishing up. So we can present that on one of our calls coming up soon, hopefully. but I created a flowchart just based on my experience of how do you know, where do you start? If. Yeah, if you have a fixture that's out or a section of fixtures that's out, or the transformer is not turning on, or how do you even turn, Determine if the transformer is working or Not. So basically you're following the power path. and, and you're trying to. What we do when, when I train my guys, everybody on my crew that's, you know, certified technicians, we've gone through all this stuff. but we've tried to become systematic. And how do you be. How are you the most efficient at troubleshooting? Because anybody can just go out and dig up the whole yard and check every splice and then just, you know, shotgun, effect and just go at it willy nilly. But you don't want to bill for three hours of labor when you can figure it out in five and fix it in 10.

Yeah.

So, so how do we. How do we go about that? It's checking the easiest stuff first. So being able to, you know, check your voltage at the transformer, check your voltage at the outlet, check your voltage at a fixture. So if you have socketed fixtures, you can just pull out a full. Pull out an led. Do you have, you know, power at the fixture? Those are all things that you can. You can run through and check power at, you know, five different points, and it'll take you less than 10 minutes. And that'll give you a lot of baseline information. So those. That's usually where we start. Check the easy things first. The next thing on the list is check the most likely problems. So, you know, things that, you know, it's more likely that a bulb burnout than a wire got cut. So check to make sure your bulb's good before you start digging up wires and make sure, you know, to see if the wires cut so that, that's, you know, gets back to the, you know, check the easy things first. Then check the things that are easiest to, you know, or most likely to occur. and. And then from there, take the information you gathered in those two steps to then say, okay, well, that didn't solve it. How do we narrow it down? And then we start narrowing things down geographically.

There are tools that help narrow, narrow it down where that problem is

You know, break it up into the yards. If you got three wires going into your transformer, one of them stripping the breaker, okay, we'll disconnect the other two. And now we can start working on that one. You know, disconnect the other two. Those were. Now we know what zones, what areas those lit up. Okay, well, now we know which one's bad. Okay, now, now we can focus down into this one third of the yard. We can eliminate the other stuff because that's working fine. So it's just taking our scope and narrowing it down further and further and further. Eventually, we'll narrow it down. Sometimes you'll luck into finding the problem. but it's also just using your senses of look around. What's changed? What's, you know, is there a fixture leaning over? Is there newly disturbed dirt? Did they just put in a new plant? Did they take out a tree? Those are all things that changed. So, you know, everything worked and then it stopped working. What changed? You know, they planted the plant. Okay, well, they probably dug a hole, cut through the wire, and now everything downstream of that doesn't work. That's easy. Dig up the plant. Yep. There's the splice. So educated guesses on that kind of thing. but just working through, working through the problem of, you know, okay, it's. If it's not this, just check this guy. It's not that, check that, and then say, okay, it's a bad wire somewhere. All right, we got a 50 foot stretch. There's some tools that'll help narrow, narrow it down where that problem is. So if there's a cut wire, you can use a tdr, which clips onto the wire, and it'll tell you how far the wire goes before it stops. there's, you know, ground fault locator. So you hook that up and you can tell where the power is bleeding into the ground because the wire's cut. So there are tools out there that help narrow it down, make it easier. they're expensive, but you charge for them. You know, if you can charge $10 an hour, if you don't know what you're doing, you can charge $100 an hour if you do. So you can pay for those tools real quick.

Yeah, well said.

start charging.

So isolation, like, like your example of like, hey, it's tripping. Well, I got three runs going in there. Just try one at a time, see which one trips it. Process, of elimination. And then like you said, like, it's. It's amazing how much you can find by just being observant. you might not even have to get a wire locator because you can see where they had just trenched through something. And it's like. And just go, pull up right there. And that happens to be the run. It's not turning on as well. It's usually that's where the cut is.

Yeah. And one of the, you know, if it's not a burned out, you know, LED or burned out lamp or bulb, you know, there's. There could be a fixed, you know, up light next to a lawn area. And then, you know, the client Goes, oh, yeah. The gardener keeps kicking this one over, and we keep putting it back in. Like, well, every time you put it in the stake, you keep. Keep twisting it, twisting it, twisting. Eventually it twists the lead wires together, it strips off the insulation, and it shorts out. Well, there's your problem. So, you know, if you know that, okay, well, this is one that's likely. You know, every time we come out here, it's knocked over. So, that's probably, you know, let's check that one first because that's the most likely culprit. It's not the one in the back that nobody touches. It's probably the one that gets beat up. The most, bugs flying around in here.

It's okay if you see things that we don't. It's okay. We're still going to go on with the interview.

Yeah.

Troubleshooting demons, they're coming at you now.

so, I mean, part of it is, is I really like troubleshooting because it's a puzzle and I like solving puzzles. I like working through it. And so I'd like, you know, I have an analytic mind, and I'm trying to think of, you know, like, okay, what can it be? How do we. How do we go through the steps? And then it's very rewarding when your system works and you find the answer because, you know, hey, I have five steps that I'm supposed to get through. I found it on three. Awesome. Like, that's. That's great. You know, so being able to set up those systems and. And work through the troubleshooting flowchart. yeah, that's. It's very satisfying to me when I. Yeah, actually, when it pans out.

Will you go work on someone else's lighting system? How do you handle situations

Cool. So a lot of new guys, I guess everybody gets asked this, but the older guys know what their answer is. But a lot of new guys will. They'll send out some marketing or, you know, maybe they got an existing business they're bolting on landscape lighting and like, hey, customer, we do lighting. And they're like, oh, yeah, we have a system. can you come? but we have some lights out. how do you. How do you handle those situations? Will you go work on someone else's lighting system?

Yeah, I mean, yes, somebody needs help, I'm going to help them. sometimes, and often cases, if somebody. If we didn't do the install or one of the other lighting companies in town or, you know, a decent landscaper put it in, chances are it's a DIY job. You know, oftentimes it's, you Know, diy and they use some cheap stuff from Home Depot or from the hardware store or at solar or whatever, unfortunately, or. Or they just had it put in a couple years ago by a landscaper and he charged him an arm and a leg. And now stuff's starting to fall apart, and then I have to go out there and say, well, he charged you, you know, an arm too much because you should have just paid the leg because this is a, you know, junk system. So, so I, you know, be the bearer of bad news. You overpaid for garbage. Now we have to tear it all out and start over.

Yeah. So when do you determine what you're going to work on and what you're going to just start over with.

With? Yeah, and that's, that's, that's a big question. That's sort of an existential question question. one that I talked to my main tech, Scott, a while back, and we got so frustrated with those calls that, you know, people like, oh, hey, can you just come out and fix a couple things? Like, well, it's not just a couple things because those couple things aren't working because there's 15 other things that aren't correct. And we, we just really got frustrated with going in and making fixes and putting lipstick on their pig and band aiding over, you know, just fixing one splice just to have another one downstream fail next.

and let's, let's pause on that for a second because I think especially the new guys, they'll think, well, no, I mean, if. Let's say you go there and they got a couple, you know, lights out, so you replace the lamp, maybe it's got a bad connection, like, dude, the system's working. What's the risk that you're getting at? Like, so that's.

So that's the thing is you have to, you have to have enough experience to know, like, okay, well, if it's just this one light, and I can fix this one light, get a check and get paid and go home. Cool. But oftentimes we'll find is it's not just, you know, one or two things. It's a systemic problem because it wasn't installed properly. They used, you know, pierce point connectors, little vampire connectors, connectors, and, you know, one's failed and the rest of them are going to fail. So I, I try to. Everything is about educating the client and giving them options. So, the point I was trying to make when I had the conversation with Scott was we got so busy that, like, we didn't want to spend a bunch of time going through and just dragging through these projects because by the time we fixed all the things we needed to fix, they're $1,500 into it. Which would have been better to put that $1,500 into a new system so that that break even point or that point of no return on the repairs. It's really hard to determine what that is. I'm still trying to figure out. There's no real formula for it, but we just have to go in and say, okay, look, you've got a few lights that aren't working. We can make those work and that will cost X. If we were to take that same amount of money and put it into a new system where you can have a full warranty installed by technicians, you know, everything's gonna keep working, then I think that would be a better use of your money. But some people are just like, Look, I've got $700. That's all I can spend. Right, okay, well, we'll do 700 worth of repairs and make it as good as we can. So that's.

Well, I don't think, I don't think.

There is a formula try to do, you know, and often with those repair jobs, it becomes, you know, it's just a conversation. We, we, the contract, if you will, just turns into a do not exceed. So we just say, well, how much do you want to put into this? And we'll take it as far. We'll just not go over that. Unless if we know we have to, then we'll just let you know. Like, here's what we think it's going to take to finish it out properly.

Yeah, well, well said on that because the communication is probably the biggest. I know in the past I had experiences where I'm like, oh, hey, yeah, we can knock this out, we'll fix this thing, yada yada. We leave. We think, yeah, we helped someone today and they only spent 700 bucks and we accomplished our task. Two weeks later we get a call getting cussed out, hey, the system was working fine until you guys were here. I mean, it was really just those three lights. But ever since you've been here, the lights are blinking, blah blah, blah, and you're like, oh wait, I didn't know we were going to inherit this other person's liability just by working on that system. So having those open lines of communication, hey, we can do that. We can fit your 700. No warranty. Like, this is not a workmanship type thing. We can put that money toward a new system. And then I've even had clients on the other end that had systems that were literally. One guy had his system was only six months old and literally paid us to rip it out and put in a whole new one. I mean it was, it was that bad of an install.

But yeah, and it's, it is terrible. And if you feel really bad for the client because they just paid a bunch of money for something that, that we're basically just throwing away cause you can't even use it. And to your point of inheriting somebody else's problem. We went out not too long ago. guy had some fixtures that were not working, some LEDs that stopped working. He wanted to do it on the cheap. So I sent the crew out there, we changed out some stuff, put in new LEDs. I had a bad socket or two. just used some LEDs we had laying around that we'd pull out of other things, cheaper end, you know, lower end stuff. but the guys, you know, got everything working and he was ecstatic. And then I get a, you know, I send out my follow up for a review and he gives me a four star review. He's my one four star review. Everything else is fives. And he said, yeah, that one of the lights started blinking and you know, I had my guys there the next day, changed out that one. But there was one more bad socket. We didn't change out all the sockets, we changed all, but you know, changed all the ones that weren't working. And then there was one that was sort of working and it stopped working after we left. The LED started blinking and now he gave me a four star review. Because one thing that we didn't, didn't fix everything. So the one thing we didn't fix failed and now that came back to bite us. Yeah, yeah.

it's much easier to get a less than 5 star review working on someone else's system than your own, that's for sure. Oh yeah, it's easier to come by. And I'll say this like we think just because someone says, hey, we want all these lights replaced, they're garbage, whatever.

You can't over communicate with your clients regarding lighting projects

Doesn't mean they're garbage. Like we've thrown away lights that then people go, no, I was going to give that to my sister. Oh, I was going to use those in the backyard. And you're like, you just paid us thousands of dollars. Are you kidding me? And they're like pissed at us. So we have to like, either we have to like go buy them new Home Depot lights or whatever it is. So yeah, I'm telling you guys, you can't over communicate with your clients. Say, hey, just want to be sure. Before we're done with this, do you want us to pile these by the front door or do you want us to haul these off? Because there are. There are.

It, is a good point. We did it. We did a big project. You, know, it's an hour and a half away. We pulled out probably 75 lights, old first generation Kichler stuff, integrated some of it was most, you know, fueled or not working. But we wanted, she wanted to upgrade everything. So we pulled it all out, we boxed it all up and brought it all back to the shop. And she's like, hey, did you, did you leave those lights somewhere? My gardener wants them box it all up and clean it all up, bring it all back to her.

At least you had it though.

We still had them. We didn't throw all of it away. But you know, but we had, you know, the stuff that was, you know, still working. We went through and tested it all. Like, here's all the ones that still work. but yeah, so that just, it's.

All communication, expectations and you, you literally can't assume anything. I'm talking. These are people that have lived in like, they're in like two, three million dollar houses that spend 20, 30, 40 grand with us and then they're still like, hey, ah, where were those little plastic guys? Yeah, like you said, like sometimes it's like, oh, my landscaper or my sister, or we'll just use those. We're just going to put them in the back. You know, no one goes back to there in that corner. It's just where we go to throw the garbage away or wherever. We're like, what? Like I would just added a light back there for free just so we didn't have to give you crappy plastic lights. Our name is on your project now. We can't have this as part of our, our association.

We need to get these pictures out of circulation. These are going to the shredder.

That's going to save somebody. Somebody is going to be saved by that alone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, that's big. Just, just making sure, everything is lined out as far as what the client is expecting. You know, they're, if you're pulling stuff out, you know, even wire, like we've had wire piled up, they're like, well, hey, what are you doing with that wire? Like, well, we take it in and recycle it. Like, well, I mean, that wire's still good, right? Like, well, I mean, it's all chopped up and dirty and, you know, corroded, but yet it still technically works. So it's like, ah, leave the wire. Okay.

How often do you get clients asking you to put a transformer inside

so how often do you get clients asking you to put a transformer, like in a closet or in the garage or something like that?

Usually they don't ask to put it inside. I mean, I'm in California, so weather is not really a big deal. You know, we need to, like, you have to go out in the snow to get to your transformer. I, I tried to not put anything inside of an enclosure, enclosed space mostly because I need my guys to be able to get to it easily to service it. And if it's inside the garage, then I have to make sure we can get into the garage if we're going to go out and fix something. So that's, that's usually my line for why, why we don't. because if somebody says, hey, you know, here's. Here's where. And I had one where it's like, oh, it's in a, in a coat closet inside the front entry, inside the house. Like, well, that's, you know, a. It's not to code. because it's not a. That transformer was not rated for interior mounting and interior electrical. And then there was landscape wires just dangling out that were running through the floor and into the. Underneath the house.

Heated floors. That's how they heat their gloves and then they got the heated floors.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, I love this because then my jacket's nice and warm when I put it on because it's right next to the transformer that's keeping it hot. so. So yeah, so I told her. I was like, I can't in good conscious, like, legally, I can't do this. Like, this is not to code. I cannot work on your system without moving this transformer out or changing it out. so. So she's like, well, you know, well, that's what the gardener did. And this is what, you know, so obviously I didn't know what I was talking about because her gardener did it.

Yeah, of course.

That's fine.

That's what gardeners do.

Have a great day. Because I, I'm not going to touch this and leave it the way it is because if I'm the last one to work on it and if there's a problem, it's coming back to me, the gardener will never hear a. About it. It was my problem because I didn't fix it. So. Yeah. So anytime we're, you know, if we have to put it in, underneath, you know, in a garage or in a shed or something, we. We make sure to, to mount it where it's clean. We're using a transformer that's acceptable. Ul listed for. For that application to. To do that. So.

Cool. Yeah, thanks for sharing. I. I just want to make that point that it's like, it's our obligation as professional professionals to make sure we're doing it to code. And, even if you are using like the, the right transformer, just have that conversation to say, listen, I, I know you're. You're certainly not going to want to have to have us, you know, bother you when we're here twice a year for maintenance. When it's outside, we can just show up, we can get this stuff done. We don't even have to bother you guys whatsoever. You won't even know we are here. And I think a lot of people appreciate that. I had, I had one where I installed in a garage and this was like my, this is my. It was probably my second year in business, might have been my first, but I didn't know that it was even against code. It was just on the, like the inside of a. Or it was on the inside of a garage, you know, whatever. And she wanted in there for security. She was worried that someone was going to steal something, break something, turn off the lights on my shirt. and so I'm like, it's fine. We'll put it in there. And then it was. It was the biggest mistake of my life. We ended up moving it out because. And she was on board with it because every time we were there, she's like, I'll be home in 15 minutes. I'm like, okay, well, we'll just wait. And it was actually 30 minutes, you know.

Yeah.

So, yeah, most of the time it's just easier to put it outside.

Yeah.

So.

So, yeah, I try to approach it from a practical standpoint for the homeowner of like, well, if it's in the garage, then yes, we have to schedule a lot closer. And then if my guys are here and you're not in, I'm gonna have to bill you for my time for them sitting in the driveway waiting for you to get home. And you're going to have to keep all the area clear of this. So you're not going to be able to stack your golf clubs next to it because my guys are going to have to get to it, you know, so we try to frame everything in a. In a terms that they understand because they don't care about the code, they don't care about UL listings, they don't care that we have to use a certain type of wire. If we're going to run it from the inside to the outside, it has to be run in conduit and running, you know, rated wire and all that. Then we got to switch from that kind of wire to the other kind of wire. And, you know, there's. There's so much of that just minutia that will bore them to death. And they're like, I don't care. I just want it in the garage because I don't want to have to go out in the rain to change the timer.

Exactly. that's true. It's our obligation.

What are some common mistakes that you see newer installers making

So, last question, then we'll wrap up. what are some of the common mistakes that you see some of these newer, less experienced installers making either, you know, in your own town there, that you're seeing up or in Facebook groups or that you hear about?

I think oversimplifying installs. I mean, yes, try to simplify things. We complicate everything. If there's an easy way to do something, I'll come up with three harder ways to do it, and that's what we'll do. but, you know, I think for me, like, a lot of it's a design thing. If I'm driving through a neighborhood and I see a new installation, I'll see a who. Whole bunch of path lights and two up lights. And I was like, well, you got the math. Completely.

Yeah, it should be more uplight.

So, yeah, switch that around. I think trying to save a buck or save a minute is the biggest mistake when you're starting out is like, oh, I found these wire splices, and they're only, you know, $0.79 versus a lighting shrink, which is, you know, $3 or whatever it is. you know, penny pinching is not going to save you in the long run. Use something that has a standard, you know, a warranty, has a manufacturer that stands behind the product. you know, using cheap splices, using cheap fixtures, yes, you can theoretically make more money up front, but you're going to get so many callbacks and lost revenue in your callbacks and lost reputation for having so many callbacks that it's. It's really not going to be worth your time, worth it to use a lesser product. So try to use and, and sell the Quality, you know, and charge accordingly. so that's, I think that's probably the, One of the biggest things I think is just trying to cut corners and do it fast and do it cheap so you can make a dollar so you can cover your nut for the month. it's just going to come back and bite you in the end.

Yeah, no, great. I feel like I, yeah, I don't know what I would answer, but I agree with both those design. They lack that. And then they're always. You see people a lot in the Facebook group. Does anyone have a cheaper this or that? I'm like, that's actually not that bad of a. That's like a really good price. All you need to do is just raise your price, charge more and you'll be fine.

Yeah, exactly. Like we, you know, I line item out how many splices I'm going to have on an instant install and I charge 750. A splice that covers the product and that covers the mistakes of the product. Because most good wire splices, you can only use them once. You know, lighting shrink, you crimp it. If you screw it up, you got to cut it off, throw it away. Even pre filled, you forget to put.

The sleeve on like, you forget to.

Put the sleeve on you crimpy, like, dang it. All right, that's, you know, frustrating when you see the new guy with a bucket full of all these crimps that he, you know, crimped it and forgot to split. You know, put the shrink tube on like, all right, you've done your 15th. You should, you should know by now, slow down, do it properly.

I won't tell you how many takes it took when I was filming that video. Okay, it looks like it was one take. I'm just saying it's always harder when.

You'Re filming it to try to get it right the first try and then you're like, ah, ah, dang it. All right, well, did it, did it again to the fifth time wrong. but yeah, there's a lot of those little quick mistakes that you can make. just not following code, not knowing what the rules are and trying to get away with stuff that it seems like it's an easy fix. but in the long run it's going to be more work to come back and undo and redo the quick fix that you try to put in. So don't skimp on the products and take your time to do it right the first time.

Well said. Well, thanks for coming on here, man. If, if, anyone's listening to this, watching this, and you're like, man, I want to be part of those calls. it's part of Landscape Lighting Secrets. But if you're cheap and you don't want to join Landscape Lighting Secrets, then there's also Lighting Academy. And right now you can try it for just a buck for a week. So sign, up, get a, Get a call in with Andy, and if you're like, he sucks, then cancel, and then it doesn't. It only costs you a buck. But if you're like, actually, that was pretty dope. I want more of that. You can stay on. So it's lightingacademy. net and again, you can try it for a buck. We've got design calls, installation calls. I actually added a sales call. So I've, I've got. I do it once a month, not twice a month for Lighting Academy people. So check that out. Andy, thanks so much for being on here. And again, congrats again, man. I'm, I'm stoked for you. I excited to see where you take this thing.

Thanks for all the help and, you know, get on those calls. I'll give you at least A$25 and good, good information.

So, yeah, get your return on investment. Yeah, all, right. thanks again, Andy. Appreciate you, man. No problem.

Thank you.

All right, everyone, take it easy. Have a good week. We'll see you next one.

It.