Lighting for Profits - Episode 160

This week on the show we welcome Tim Ryan who has over 25 years of experience in landscape lighting, combining his expertise in landscape architecture and construction. In 2015, he joined The Lighthouse Group as an executive board member and director to mentor the next generation of lighting professionals and build a nationally recognized organization. Tim is also a professional photographer, specializing in architectural and landscape lighting. His goal for the next decade is to train and support new outdoor lighting designers, promoting this under appreciated art form.

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Episode Transcript

We discussed everything you need to know to start and grow a successful landscape lighting business

Welcome to lighting for profits.

All Light, All Light. All Light.

Powered by Emery Allen.

Get rid of your excuses.

Your number one source for all things landscape lighting. That's where the magic can happen. You can really scale a business. We really had to show up for each other from lighting design, install, sales, and marketing. You're a scaredy cat salesman, Kurt. We discussed everything you need to know to start and grow a successful landscape lighting business. What do you think a hippo has to do with your business, Ryan?

Usually it's some weird childhood thing, some.

Bullying kicks your butt. I think the key factor here is trust. Here is your host, Ryan Lee.

Today's show is lighting for profits powered by Emery Allen

all right, a lot.

All light. Let's go. It's the number one landscape lighting show in Indianapolis, Indiana. It is lighting for profits powered by Emery Allen. I'm Ryan Lee, your host. And today we've got an epic show. We've got the one, the only, mister Tim Ryan with the lighthouse group coming on to join us. And, it's hard to think of a better person to just geek out on lighting and especially design and photography and all this stuff that we're going to get into. So, really, excited about today's show. you're going to want to stick around for this. we're here to educate, to motivate, to help you dominate. So, as you guys know, like, I love landscape lighting. and it's kind of crazy because I don't like bright lights, so it makes sense, right? But, like, I'll wear, like, sunglasses into home depots and stuff, you know, it's just too bright for me in there. but, you know, we really are here to help you. So if you're looking to start or grow a landscape lighting business, you're definitely in the right place. And this is the episode you want to listen to. Got, to know Tim over the last few years, and just a great guy, very smart, very educated on all things lighting, and, just a great resource for the industry. So super excited to have him on, by the way. Still begging, still pleading, still asking for those five star reviews. I'm in a contest now with Chris Applestadt. I'm just trying to get to 100 reviews before he does for. So if you. If you like him better, then give him a five star review. If you like us equally, we'll both take them. But, just go look for lighting, for profits on apple. Hit those five stars. And if you feel good, you know, write something nice if you got value out of it. And, I guess maybe this might be the last announcement, but secret summit, that's our members only event coming up next month, just here in a few weeks in park city, Utah. And so if you've been on the fence, you're thinking about joining, now is the time. You guys are going to be blown away at what we announced with 2.0 and all the stuff that comes with it. And, not that you will get a bad deal if you join after. You're going to get a great deal, but the stuff we've got now is just phenomenal. So book a call. Landscape lighting, secrets. com. and, of course, I want to thank Emery Allen. Man, they got those single source leds, you know, and, if I can get my music going. Do you guys know this? I secretly like rap and hip hop. It's just good. Snoop at the olympics, I think that was, like, a huge boost. But, let's be honest. Were you really happy with the way your last lighting job turned out? Was it okay or do you think it was missing something? Well, if I could drop a suggestion, mix it up. Okay. Do some a b testing for your next job and give Emory Allen a try. They're confident you and your customers, your clients will, will be really happy with the final product. So they got the lowest va. Highest cra cra cri in the industry, and, they're just going to hook you up. Okay? They got. They got that single source led. Emery Allen, just email tom g@emoryallen. com. and get your account set up. If you mentioned that you heard about him here on lighting for profits, he's going to hook you up with the discounted contractor price. Just email Tom Ghdev at emory allen. com. man, I love this industry, guys, and I love this show. I'm just grateful, you know? And I hope you guys will express some gratitude because this, this industry is unlike anything I've seen. And I talked to people who have sold, you know, hundred million dollar companies and, like, yeah, they had some awesome exits, but, like, what we get to do, like, how we get to change people's lives with lighting is just, it's amazing. It's. It's. It's such an amazing industry. And I'm grateful every single day that. That I. That I still get to be a part of it. So I love it.

Tim Ryan: If you're struggling to get leads, join a community

before we have Tim on again, guys, if you're just joining in, Tim Ryan, the lighthouse group, we're gonna be talking lighting design. We're gonna be talking photography. We're gonna be talking business. All the stuff. But, But before we have him on, I was actually, Lindsey, like, 30 minutes before we. We're doing the show. She's like, are we gonna be okay? I'm like, what happened? We have to go back to therapy. And, she's like, are we. What if we go into a recession? And I'm like, what? We don't watch the news? Like, what are you doing? Did you watch the news again? and, it was a friend. She was talking to a friend, and, she got real nervous because she was asking her questions about what ifs and all this stuff. I'm like, dude, we don't watch the news. If you're asking yourself, what if we go into a recession? I'm going to give you guys four steps to not have to worry, okay? So if your wife asks you the question, or your husband or whoever is asking you, like, are we going into recession? Are we going to be okay? Well, step one, this is pretty easy. Don't watch the news. Okay? And then, step two is just see step one, okay? Because I promise you, like, there's things that you can't control, and there's things that you. That you can control. And the more you listen and act out of fear, the more you're going to seize up and not do anything. Okay? And I survived the zero eight crash, and not only did I survived, I thrived. And so I know some things about what you guys can, can do. Step number three, join a community. Join a community. Tim and I are going to talk about a few of those communities today, but there's tons of communities out there. Wish I had the button ready. Oh, yeah. Landscape, lighting secrets. But join a community. Be part. Because if you're. If you're relying on your family and your neighbors and your friends to give you strength, they're gonna talk you out of shit. Like, they're gonna tell you not to do stuff, right? And you need to be surrounding yourself with other entrepreneurs, high achievers, people that want the next thing, that are willing to do hard things. It's a different. If it's a different mindset than just a regular neighbor, a regular friend. A regular, like your spouse, cannot handle these emotions that are required to grow a business. So that's step number three, step number four. I literally just made this up the other day. It's called b one ref. Ref. Okay? This is my framework. B one ref. And I put this together because I was meeting with a client that was struggling with some momentum, struggling with some leads. they just weren't. I mean, they were, they're still doing, when I compare them to, like, the rest of the lighting world, they're actually still doing really well. They're like million and a half revenue so far for the year, like, doing well, but they're not what they should be. Okay? And, So it's not like they don't know what to do, but they kind of don't because they're, they're stuck. Right. And what, what can happen as you grow and you build these machines, these businesses? You need to adjust your inputs and so, like, what you were doing before is not going to work forever. And you're going to have to reinvent certain things and tweak certain things and stuff like that. And so be one ref is for anyone out there that's struggling to get leads, that's struggling with mindset, that's struggling, closing deals, all these things. So be in b. One ref is belief. And if you don't believe in yourself, if you don't believe in lighting and how it can influence and change people's lives, then you're not, you're, you don't even have the right foundation. Like, if you're, if you're just in this for the money, if you're just in this for whatever you're doing and you think that, oh, yeah, well, people will call if they want lighting. Like, you're screwed. Like, it's just not going to work. Okay?

So you've got to start with belief. Like, what are your beliefs around lighting

So you've got to start with belief. Like, what are your beliefs around lighting? Do you think it's a luxury item that only rich people get? Like, well, technically you might be right. Because whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right. Okay? And so I want you to question your beliefs and, like, my beliefs are crazy, guys. I'm, I'm psycho, okay? I believe that people need landscape lighting. Like, if they don't, bad things are going to happen. People are going to fall and get hurt on their property. They're probably going to get robbed tonight. If they don't have security lighting, they're probably going to come home and yell at their kids because they're in a bad mood from work without lighting because it's dark and darkness brings terror. Right? If we can enhance their outdoor living space and put them in a good mood, how would that change their life with their, with their, with their kids, with their spouse? Like, how would that change the future of their business and their progress and their success? Like, lighting is so impactful and powerful. And my belief is so insane that I'm willing to ask people hard questions when they go, well, we want to think about it. We're just not sure. And if your belief isn't as crazy as mine, you're going to be like, okay, no, no problem. Yeah, think about it. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay. So you need some other quotes. Okay, yeah, no problem. And then they're going to either not do lighting and then they're going to live a miserable life having people fall and get hurt on their property. They're going to get broken into and they're going to yell at their kids. So unless you hate people, you better change your belief. Okay. Like, you have to get crazy about this. Like, what are your beliefs around lighting? Because once you believe that lighting can truly change lives, your sales ability goes through the roof because you're not selling fixtures. Okay? And so there's a huge difference between selling fixtures and changing lives. That's pretty obvious, right? So if you're selling fixtures and someone doesn't move forward, who cares? They were just going to buy some fixtures. But if you're changing lives and someone's not willing, they don't understand. You're going to work on your process, you're going to work on your belief, you're going to work on your value proposition so that you can influence their belief. Okay? And yes, it's true that poor people don't buy lights, but that's because they can't. They don't have the money. Right? So let's target the right people who do have the ability to buy lights, but that doesn't mean that poor people don't need lighting. Everybody needs lighting, okay? And if you don't have that belief, it's going to be really, really hard to succeed over the next couple of years. All right, b one, ref. That's b one.

A lot of people think they have a lead problem, like everybody

One is the power of one more. So a lot of people think they have a lead problem, like everybody. Oh, I need more leads. Need more leads. Well, have you really looked at your machine? Have you? Like, what happens when a lead comes in? How many leads are you actually meeting with? How many are you actually answering the phone within 5 seconds? Are you answering on the first or second ring? Because some people say, well, I'm not getting leads. Well, how many missed calls did you have? Like, that's where it starts. And then even when you do get the call, what are you doing on the phone? What, how, how professional are you? What are you at? What types of questions are you asking? Are you asking any questions? Are you setting up an appointment right away? Are you setting it up the next day or four days later? All these things matter, okay? And so it's not just a, lead problem, it's a process problem. Like, what are you doing to get one more? And the power of one more is when I look at, your business on a larger scale. Twelve months. Okay? Some of you are in markets that operate 52 weeks. Some of you are in markets that, you know, it freezes and you're not gonna do much for some of it, right? So let's just say 40 weeks, if your average job is $10,000. And if it's not, it's $5,000. These numbers still, you can do your math the same way, but let's get your average ticket up, which is another thing we're not going to talk about today. But if your average job is ten grand, and you could just get one more. One more job every single week that you're currently not closing because you didn't answer the phone on time, because you didn't ask the right questions, because your sales approach was bad. Tim and I are going to talk about design. Maybe your lighting design was bad. Maybe all of it was bad. Some. Some. I've seen that, too. But a lot of times, like, you have a lot of good things going for you. It's just one or two little broken things, right? So what if you could just change that one or two little thing, tweak your process, and squeeze one more job out a week, that's $400,000 in new revenue that you got without getting more leads. Like, this is. This is. This is out there. I'm telling you, I can go find this, pay me, fly me out to your area. I will find this for you. There is a job every single week that you could be squeezing out if you believed. If you believe that they need lighting, okay? And so we're talking $400,000. I mean, that's more than some lighting companies do in a year, right? Just by squeezing one extra job out. So what if you didn't have a lead problem? What if you had a sales problem? What if you had a process problem? All right, so that's the b one.

How often are you asking for referrals? And people are like,

Now, what's the ref? Well, ref is first one is referrals. So how often are you asking for referrals? And people are like, oh, we grew up, my whole business is word of mouth. We grow on referrals. Okay, that's fine. But, like, that just happened. Like, they just referred someone to you or someone, like, saw the lights and knocked on the door. But how much are you, instead of passively getting referrals, how much are you actively getting referrals? I'm talking asking for referrals. Like, during. Like, before the cell. During the cell, after this sell, during the installation. After the installation. A month after the installation. I mean, there's so many times where you could be asking for referrals, and it's crazy, you guys. How many people don't do this? And then once people start to do this, and not just once. Okay, the first is the worst. You ask a client for one referral. Don't get it. Oh, that was a stupid strategy. Not listening to that guy again. That was. That was lame. Like, no, this. This is a numbers game. Ask every single person for referrals seven times over those first seven interactions with them, and you'll be surprised how many more referrals you're getting. Got to be creative. Okay, I'll use referrals as a negotiation. Guy wants a deal. I can't give you a deal. Let's say you are willing to come down some. Well, if I was to do that, if I was to come down $500, the only way I could do that is if I could know I was going to get another job. Can you get me another job? Can you get me a referral? What family and friends do you have that could help me make up this lost revenue? And now we use it as a negotiation tool. Okay, that's just one idea. There's tons of other ideas. Gift cards for work at your place, and all the. All these different things, right? But the point is referrals, and then the last ref is referral partners.

You have this ideal client in your mind, okay?

Okay? So think about. You have this ideal client in your mind, okay? They live in a nice house, and they spend tons of money on landscape lighting. That's everyone's ideal client. Right? They love landscape lighting, and they have an unlimited budget. Okay, where do these people live, and who do they associate with? Well, who do they trust? It's the landscaper. It's the landscape architect. The ones that we want. Right? They have an architect. Oh, they always have an interior designer. You walk in their house, it looks like it's on the COVID of a magazine. So who did the design? Right. It's, the home builder, it's a pool builder, it's the AV company. Like, there's so many different people that are connected to this person. It's their realtor, it's their doctor, it's whoever it is. Right? Like, find these people, get in with them, leverage those relationships and close more deals. This will increase your average ticket. This, this increases your closing rate because these people don't care what it costs. They just want to know when it can be done right. So that's my b one ref. These things don't cost money. You know, they might maybe a little bit if you got a gift card, whatever. But, like, my question to you is, how focused are you on these things and how willing are you to be hardcore into these? Like, are you just going to ask for a referral once this week? Because that's not enough. You know, in, in my opinion, you can't complain about your surroundings until you've done everything in your power to control the controllables. And this is controlling the controllables. So if you're busy chasing clients, if you're busy following up with people who aren't interested and you're busy putting out fires in your business, you're not going to have time to do this. So get rid of the distractions, focus on the b one ref, ref. And ensure that you're not going to have to worry about the recession. So when your wife asks you, are we going to be okay? What about the recession? You're like, b one ref, ref. And then you can tell her about the whole thing. All right, guys, that's pretty much all I got for you. It's time to get to our guest. I'm excited to have Tim on, so let's figure out where the music is and let's get going. If you guys have questions for Tim, let us know. Let's go.

Tim Ryan is the master of lighting design

Welcome m to the the show, mister M. Tim Ryan. What's up, buddy?

Ryan Lee, thank you so much for having me on today. How are you?

I love it, man. I feel great, man. This show puts me in such a good mood. Like I said, man, it just fills me with gratitude. So I'm grateful to see you. I'm grateful that we could connect today.

Hey, I'm just, really thrilled to be able to be on and, be able to speak with your audience and hopefully there's some wisdom and knowledge I'm happy to share with everybody.

I love it, man. We got some, we got people, already chiming in. We got Jason. Buckle up, everyone. The master of lighting design is here. We got Chris. Tim is the man. I've been patiently waiting for his landscape lighting photography course to hit the market. Let's go. That's awesome, man.

Ryan Miller talks about how he got into the landscape lighting industry

Well, it's been fun getting to know you over the last few years, most people know I just ran a lighting business and I didn't go to anything. So when I talk about like, join a community and all this other stuff, I mean, it sounds hypocritical because ten years ago I would have been like, screw your community. You know, like, that just wasn't me. But man, I'm so grateful for these, these organizations, these groups, because they've connected me to so many wonderful people like yourself. So let's get into it. If you wouldn't mind, maybe just do a quick introduction, who you are, how you got involved in the landscape lighting industry.

Yeah. So that was a long sorted history. but it'll take you back. really. I started out in, like many of the guys here, you know, I started out in landscape design, construction, doing that for a number of years and always did lighting into it. And then, about 25 years ago, I really discovered my love for lighting. It was at, actually a, was, it used to be John Deere landscapes at the time, it was in San Diego, California. And I was just trying to figure, killing some time. And I thought, what class should I go take? And they had a, vista lighting was putting on a class called lighting for profits, of all things.

It really was.

It really was.

That's awesome. So, I think I'm so original all the time. I tried to start a podcast, podcast called light it up. Tom Garber already had it. Now I call it lighting for profits. Freaking Vista and John Deere, you know.

Hey, but you're doing something with it. So that's. But anyway, we went to this class and you, know, I'd always incorporated lighting into everything that we'd done. And getting into this class, you know, I get, I gotten sick of guys tearing up my equipment. And I was kind of in a crossroads, like, okay, what do I do now? So I just sat in this classic. Okay, yeah, cool. I want to learn a little more about lighting. And then literally was a light bulb moment, going in and learning and seeing like most guys in the landscape industry, landscape lighting is a, is a gimme, right. they'll use it as a loss leader in order to be able to sell that patio project or install those trees or all these other things, and not realizing that lighting is the most profitable sector in the green industry out of anything that they could be doing, and they just flip and give it away. And so what the, instructor was saying is he was laying out, look at the profits you could actually making if you actually charge what you needed to the amount, the low overhead that you have, the low operating expenses, you don't need all these crew to do it. And literally, it was a light bulb moment for me. I'm like, well, hallelujah, that's what I'm going to do. And at that point, I was already in love with lighting. I absolutely loved it. There's, you know, there's nothing better than that reveal night sitting out there. It's a warm night, fireflies are around, and you flip those lights on for the first time. And, Ryan, I'm telling you, I've done beautiful landscape projects, and by the time, you know, you get through that project, people are ready for you to get off their property. And, it was a culmination of that. In one night, I was wrapping up a landscape project. We've been there about three months. Did everything, was on a golf course, everything you can imagine. We did waterfalls, patio, kitchen, everything. She was ready for us to go. And so near the end of the project, we installed our lighting. While I was cleaning up the street, it was getting dust. She comes home, pulls in the drive. She's like, are, ah, we done? I'm like, yeah, we're done. Finally. Thank you. I'm out of your hair. I said, the lights are done. I said, go back, grab yourself a glass of wine. I'll be back. I'm gonna finish sweeping up, and I'll be right back around. We can take look at it together. So I finished cleaning up. I go back around the side of the house. She's standing here in the patio, Ryan, she's drinking wine, and she's got tears coming down her eyes. And I go, Marcia, where were all these tears when I was out here? We were cutting. We were building all these patios. She said, there's just something about the lighting. It looks so different. It's a magical place. And many of you guys that are listening today, you can relate to that, because there's something about when you turn those lights on, you literally. I know it's cliche, right? But you're seeing your home in a completely different light. You. These homeowners have never experienced their home this way or their patio this way. I look at it this way when I, when I train our designers, I say, look, when I was a landscaper, I used to have to plant trees and bushes, and I used to have to work at hiding everything that was undesirable. Right? With lighting, we have the opportunity. We start with a black canvas. It's completely m black. And you, as the artist, you have a fine set of brushes and paints. And we go in there and we selectively choose what we're going to paint in that canvas. And it's, it's a complete composition that we create. And, it's just, it's amazing. There's nothing like it. There's no art that's like lighting at all. And literally once you get in, you get trapped. So that was my journey, getting into it. And so I was an independent lighting guy for years. I lived in Boise, Idaho, for a number of years. And in, 2008, recession took me out. I was looking for anything I could do. I couldn't even get a job at McDonald's. It was, it was, it was pretty bad in the west. you were, I don't know if you're out there, remember that, but it was, it was pretty bad during that time. So I wound up relocating to a, flyover state.

Ryan France joined Lighthouse Lighting in January 2015 after working for electrical company

I didn't even know where it was. Indiana. Took a job for a company here doing, that was an electrical company. They thought, hey, let's start a landscape lighting company. So went across the country, checked it out, wound up moving to Indiana, got a fresh start, and, ah, a little more recession proof here. And things were good. And so I worked, worked for them for about a year, then went back and started my business up again. But in 2015, I had an opportunity to go to work, through just different circumstances, different people. I knew, the owners of Lighthouse at that time, I'd known them for a while and had worked with them training some of their franchisees and putting together curriculums and, doing that for five or six of their franchisees before I joined them in January 2015. just, I got to know the ownership and, you know, I was at a point in my career where I either had to grow my business very, very big, invest a lot of capital and grow, or it was at a point where I've been doing this for 15 years. I thought, you know what? I've learned a lot. What else could I do in the industry? What else could I give back? And for me, it was, I love to teach. I love to impart wisdom. I love to see the light bulb go off in people's eyes. I love to see them get the understanding, see them go out, see them succeed, see them grow. And for me, I said, you know what? If I can do anything, I would love to train the next generation of designers. And so coming into Lighthouse, you know, franchises, they don't normally have a really good reputation. Most, of them out there are product peddlers. And, you know, a franchise is really only as good as the people internally, that understand lighting, that supports you. And look, there's things we can do. We can support our teams better. We're always looking for ways that we can support. But one thing that was a cardinal rule for me when I came in and joined Lighthouse. I said, look, I don't want to be trained another generation of product peddlers. That's not what it's about. This is about art. And for me, I said, we're going to be very, very limited about who we bring in. We don't want just a warm body and a paycheck to come in and join our organization. We want people who are passionate about design, who really want to embrace the art of landscape, lighting design. And we want to be able to have a group of, group of individuals and designers around the country that we can put out there to the public that are excellent ambassadors to our profession, to the landscape lighting profession, that understand the or understand the science that goes with it and, just do top quality work. And so over the course of the last ten years, we've stripped the franchise down, we've tried to rebuild it. And I've got to say right now, the group of people, designers and guys that I have in this organization, I'm incredibly proud of them. each one of them are just great designers in their own right. we have a great diversity mix of individuals from different backgrounds, and it's just fun to get together and have that, you know, that internal community, just like the lighting community at large itself. Ryan, through these different organizations you mentioned, there is that camaraderie, there's that spirit that works together. And even more so when you're talking about a franchise group where we have individuals, we all have the same challenges, we all have the same struggles. We're all essentially on the same team working together, and, we can help each other out. And so having that banter and that communication internally has just created a, ah, phenomenal, culture within our, within our, organization. We just love it. So that's what lighthouse. You know, we're continuing to grow, we're continuing to advance. You know, things change, hurdles change. As you were talking about, obviously, you know, financial times, they go up and down and they change. But, the wealthy always have money.

Ryan, I'm with you, man.

It doesn't change. And even in a recession, they make more money.

So there's people in the south of France, right now are just laughing. So. Yeah, no kidding, right? Well, so you've done it. Focus.

It's focusing on, on just getting, get in the right direction with our group. So.

Cool. Yeah. I mean, you've done a great job. Kind, of, I don't know if this was intentional or not, but you've kind of carved out your own name and brand in the industry just then, you know, Tim Ryan, and people know you. Like, Jason was on here, like, buckle up. We got the master lighting design. Like, you're just known for design.

We're inundated with people getting into landscape lighting right now

I was hoping maybe you could just share with us a couple of tips. I know it's not like, oh, lightning design. It's easy. Like, just step one, step two. But maybe, you know, getting started, like, where does someone start? Like, they show up to a property, they're like, oh, crap, what do I do? can you give us, like, what goes on in your mind when you show up to a property?

Yeah. Let m me back up a little bit, though. We're talking about guys getting into this industry right now. We're, we're inundated with people getting into landscape lighting. And for one, when I was getting started back, we didn't have AOlp, we didn't have Ellie. We didn't have Ellie, we didn't have all these organizations. We didn't have lighting for profits. Right? We didn't have Ryan Lee to help us grow our business and help us, you know, navigate the minefield of lighting. It was, it was trial and error. An awful lot of error sometimes. So what my advice would be, and, ah, this is, this is good for anybody getting in this industry that is really not sure. Brand new to lights. Get a demo kit and go out and practice. that is the best thing I learned so much. Look, you know how desperate I got. This is, this is guerrilla marketing. Ryan, listen, this is the way I used to do it. I needed to build a portfolio and I didn't have one. And when things got slow, you know, what I did is I went out, I found neighborhoods that I liked, and I went out and I knocked door to door and I said, hey, sir, I'm Tim with firefly lighting at the time. I said, hey, I love your house. It is as beautiful. I am m trying to build up my portfolio with houses just like yours. I'm a lighting designer. I would love to set up a temporary demo out here and just get photos of it. You could enjoy it, take a look at it. No pressure to buy. And, yeah, most people kick me off their doorstep say, get out of here, you stupid kid.

I was gonna say, so how many people let you do it? And then, did any of those people actually buy, or was it just a photo op?

They did, yeah. So I'd actually get people that were genuinely curious, right? They're like, we've thought about that. And, and then I would get, you know, it's, it's not a lot, but occasionally you get one to go like, yeah, how much would this be? And like, yeah, it'd be x amount. They're like, yeah, let's do it. This is awesome. So, you know, it's guerrilla marketing, man. It's, there's, there's ways you can get out there, make money, and there's ways you can learn design. For somebody getting into lighting, I would say, buy some lights, go out, do demos. I hate doing demos because it takes up all night. It's. But sometimes you got to do mock ups. You got to do these things in order to see it. And even now, after 25 years, I've got to look at things and go, how am I going to like that? And doing a mockup sometime is the best thing. Get out there. Play with the lights. So somebody new to lighting, get out, play with a light. Move your light six inches this way. Move it six inches that way. Look at the shadows. Look at how things change.

Such good advice. One, I know, I know, some people automatically are like, but what lights do I use, Tim? There's this manufacturer in this manufacturer, and I would just, like, just get some lights.

Like, get some lights.

You just need some lights.

You know, we get so we can get so bogged down in the technicalities of beam spread and wattage and color temperature and all. And all these things are important. They are important. But when you're learning, you are going to understand that light is incredibly forgiving. when you're moving things a little bit here and there, in some instances, light is so forgiving, you're really not going to notice a whole lot of difference. sometimes you will, but that's why we do mockups. It really doesn't matter the brand. Just get some lights and go out and practice, and you're going to develop your own design aesthetic over time. You're going to find things that you like, the way you design. I design very different than a lot of other people do in the industry, but that's, that's kind of the way our look is.

Yeah.

And my look is. And that's okay. That's okay. Just like any artist the way you paint your canvas, you know, a Monet is not a Rembrandt, and a Rembrandt is not a Gauguin. Right? Everybody has their own signature in the way they're all painters, but they all do it a little bit different, and they're all artists.

Well said. Yeah. Well said.

So they can all do it a little bit different.

Second piece of advice for people getting into lighting industry is knowing when not to

Second piece of advice for. For people getting into the lighting industry, and this is something I actually, you know, after going to, Illy, we can talk about that a little bit later. when I went to Illy, you know, you get stuck in a rut sometimes, and, you know, we walk in on a project. You know, you can look at a project, look at trees, and go, well, put two lights there, two lights there, two lights there, two lights there, like the house. Boom, we're done, right? And the formula works, right? But sometimes you have to look and go, what am I doing that's differentiating my design work, my. My signature from everybody else out there? Look, anybody. Anybody can buy a light picture. They can point at a tree, they can point it at a wall. The difference between a designer and a contractor is knowing when not to. You know, we shouldn't always like that tree. We shouldn't always light that wall. And what I would tell designers as they go, embrace the darkness, because darkness is your friend. Without shadow, we don't have any dimension in anything that we're lighting. We need to have a balance of the light and the darkness together in order to shape what we're doing to create contrast and depth, in our design. So use negative space in places. there's all kinds of examples where you can do that. We could go down the road, need pictures to do that. But embrace the darkness. Don't light everything flat and the same, because it creates a one dimensional look.

Well, I actually learned this concept from you. Okay. This was after I sold my lighting business. This was, like, last year or the year before I came, when it was. We were on the le. We were doing the le course, and. And I was looking at this photo, and it happened to be yours, and you were on the call, too. But I was like, the amount of discipline to not light a japanese maple. Like, I was like, how do you not light that tree, dude? Like, it needs a. Like, I'm like, it needs it up a light so bad. Like, I'm addicted to light. So, like, if there's a tree, it's going to die if it doesn't have a light. And so I had to learn that, and I saw it through your work, you know? And so I really can appreciate that. that just because we can doesn't mean we should. I've learned a lot about that.

That's right. And, you know, design is a muscle you learn by doing. And every project that we do, you know, it's so easy in business. We get so busy, and we're moving from job to job. But if you're not out, look, if you're not out, you just set up your lights and you go out, and you don't ever go back and look at your lights. How can you call yourself a designer, Ryan? How can you do that? How can you go out if you're not actually aiming in, checking to make sure everything is perfect for that customer? When you're going out, you're asking for a, preventive maintenance agreement, you're asking for a referral, right? At the same time you're spending that time there. You're building rapport, but you're also double checking, making sure everything is perfect and dialed in. Those are just incredibly important things. And they help you. They help you grow as a designer, because you're going to go back and you're going to see, oh, wow, probably should have used a one watt there instead of a five watt. I really over blew that. And so those are the lessons that you learn as you go along, doing the demos, embracing the darkness, seeing your jobs, tweaking, tweaking your signature design over time. That's really going to help a, new designer as he goes out and.

Does that so good. I mean, you honestly get paid to learn design? Because I did the same thing. I would do these demos, and I'm like, okay, they're, they're paint. Like, I, it was free, you know, but I would get paid to do the job, and then same thing I'm out there doing at night. I'm like, gosh, this looks terrible. Like, why is this aimed like this? And I'd move it back, and they're like, oh, that looks good right there. I'm like, it does, you know, because you can't see, like, that close or whatever. And so I'd put it there and go back to the street. I'm like, that actually doesn't look really good right there, you know? So, yeah, you, you can actually get paid to learn in this industry. It's with, with a demo and when, with these night sets, you know, and going back and tweaking things and all that.

Exactly, exactly. Yep.

Well, so that's great advice.

There's two approaches to lighting, right? There's. Um, prescriptive approach versus artistic approach

But now I just want to ask you, you show up to a property, okay, you've got decades of experience. You pull up what. What things go on in your mind. Do you have a sequence? Do you have a process for, you know, principles that you're following? And I know there's principles, right? But it's like, are you literally, do you have a checklist where you're like, I got to make sure I got my focal point. I got to this. Or do you start by, like, something that you see? Like, where does your mind go to start that. That design process?

The very first. Very first step in a design process, I'll back up. You have to be very careful. And when I was a younger designer or a younger salesman, I would imprint my design aesthetic over something that maybe they didn't necessarily want, the, homeowner didn't necessarily want or need. And what I have learned is, don't go in with preconceived notions and visions of what. What we should be doing. Until I do an interview, I, you know, when I walk into a property, the first thing I ask a client is, why am I here? What do you need? And it's, for me, it's about identifying those pain points. And I say pain points. It's those wants and those desires or those needs. Right. I, you know, you can. You can take an artistic approach. I I talk about. There's two approaches to lighting, right? There's. There's. There is the, pragmatic, prescriptive approach. I call it prescriptive approach, right. versus an artistic approach. Prescriptive approach. I would call, basically, it's, we. We need light here for safety. We need light here for. For pragmatic reasons. Right. We just need, you know, be able to move around the property, navigate. So that's. Anybody can do that path lights, wall lights, anything that's going to light these. These changes. But when it comes to artistic lighting, it's, how do we. How do we put this practical lighting and blend it in with something that's artistic to make it beautiful as well? and so when I come into that, I'm always thinking about the why. Why am I here? But then I. Then, like you're saying, I look at the elements. You know, every. Every landscape provides a very unique canvas for us. and we can only show our design prowess or design ideas for. For illuminating a space based off of the elements that are there in the landscape. If it's devoid of trees and plantings it's pretty bleak, right. I've gone into projects sometimes where people have invited me out, and I look around, and there's not a single tree on the property. There's just a walkway in a house. I'm like, I know you called me, but I don't. I don't know why you called me for landscape. I didn't know how many landscape.

Right.

It's like, put some landscape in, and then, call me back. Let's talk.

My first house, I literally did that. I'm like, I saw, like, some of these backyards. I put in, like, this small cabana with some trees just so I could have lighting back there. Like, I just had grass.

Exactly. You know, and it's. It's, you know, there's, obviously, that I think it's an american trend. everybody likes to light their mcMansion. That always seems to be, like, the first thing people want.

Oh, yeah.

So that's kind of the foundation. And so. But my process, I go in, you know, without any bias. I do, obviously, try to build rapport, you know, find. Find commonality, you know, try to honestly, genuinely build a relationship. If I'm going to be working with this customer, this. I'm going to be with this customer a long time, and I genuinely not only need to assess building rapport, but I need to assess, is this someone I want to have a relationship with for 56, 10, 15 years? there's been some people that red flags go off, and I just walk away and I go, you know, I don't think I'm the right person for you. And I think anybody that's been in this industry long enough, they've had those conversations or those. Those thoughts go in the back of their head.

That wasn't your one, was it?

no.

You only. You only know this because you. You know, you took those clients on in the beginning and you regretted it later. Right?

That's. That's 100% right. You know, it's those ones that come back and bite you. You go, not gonna. Not gonna do that again. Yeah, again. So it's, you know, going in, building that rapport, assessing the client need, and then we need to look at the property. You know, we all need to make money.

Many contractors are afraid to talk money, Ryan Smith says

So there's projects that we're going to take, even though we got to pay the bills, but we look for those specific projects where we get, wow, we go, okay, I can really do something with this. And then if. If our vision aligns with the needs of the homeowner then it's, then it's a perfect marriage, because now we can start to take the time to explain our vision and paint our vision for them about what we want to do within, that yard space and help them mentally walk through that with us. obviously, it's daytime, and people have a hard time visually doing that, but walk through that. And so one of the advantages I have, obviously, being a photographer, we've got, you know, in lighthouse, our guys, you know, we have an advantage over a lot of lighting companies out there. We, we have ten to 15,000 different reference images that our guys can take out in the field. And, oh, you want a house that looks like this, your backyard looks like this. Here's 15 images of something similar, that look good. So we can use imagery to help paint the picture. And then if we need beyond that, we can do mock ups, but it's really understanding client needs and making sure that our vision matches up well. And then before we leave, we always, you know, if it's a big project, I'm never going to move beyond the next step until I know that I've got, you know, at least an agreement on budgethouse or moving forward. I just don't do wild pie in the sky. I used to, for years, I used to go out and hope and pray, right, that I would make this beautiful design and come back and I could spend a full day creating a design and proposal, and they can shoot me down in 5 seconds, and I waste an entire day. I said, you know, this is stupid. Why am I doing this? if I can't have an upfront contract with somebody, that says, hey, we're going to talk about this today. I'm going to answer all your questions, and at the end of our conversation, I'm going to give you some budgets, and we're going to agree on some budgets, and we're going to agree to either move forward or not. And for me, coming to that understanding was a changing point because I stopped wasting time, and I really started to focus more on what somebody wants. So many contractors are afraid to talk money, Ryan, and I don't know why it is some are not, but so many are. They're afraid to talk money. They think if I, if I overprice this now, I'm going to lose a customer, and I need to massage it a little bit. And that's just stupid. You're going to have to tell them numbers eventually anyway.

Exactly.

Get it over handed off and get it over with. Right.

So waste your time when you tell those numbers upfront is that, you know, a lot of people ask the question, do I charge a design fee? Do I charge for demos? Like, all this stuff? It doesn't sound like you're saying it's a design fee. It's just like, just so, you know, realistically, if you want this, it's 20,000 or whatever.

Yeah. So we'll, we'll budget brackets. So before we get into doing any design, it's walking out there, you know, knowing, and this, this takes some experience, you know, looking out there and building a bracket in your mind. You go, Mister misses Smith. You know, based off of what we talked about today, you know, you want a, b, and c. If I can put those in a hierarchy for you, what are the most important things? You know, is a most important, b most important, or c most important? And when I build my proposal, I'm gonna build ABC in that order, and I let them choose ABC. We put together complete designs, but we still, we still allow some degree of choice. If they don't want to go all the way in or part way in, anything they're gonna choose is gonna look intentional. But as they're, as they're putting that, we're putting that together, we still have to have an understanding of where we're gonna be budget wise. And so I already know when I go put my proposal together, I've already got a verbal, yeah, okay, $25,000. Okay, that's, that's within the realm of possibility. Let's. Let's do it. Let's look at it. And then beyond that, then I, then I put a design fee together so I can go through. I can say, hey, we'll charge a design fee. It's gonna be x amount of dollars, because it's gonna take me some time to do this. And what I'll do is, if it's not a real big one, I'll say, hey, I'll credit it back into your project. and we do it there. And then just, you build it into your, you know, build it into your job anyway, so we still get our money in it. If it's, a much bigger project where I'm starting to, you know, I've got multiple visits to the site. I'm doing aerial work with drones to do a site plan. If I've got to do a cad drawing, if I've got to do renderings, that's a whole different conversation, because we'll take. Design will be a completely separate entity away from that, and it could be anywhere from five to $30,000 just in design work and in getting all the renderings as we move through the design phases.

When you say if you, if you need to do that, I mean, is that like by the, the, by the project because they're requesting it or because you feel like you might want to do that?

So we look at that based off of the project. So a lot of it is due to the scale of the project. If it's a small project, you're going in, it's 1015, $20,000. It's a front yard, backyard, side. You probably don't need to put, you know, a CAD project together. Right. most of that you can do on a notepad and it's pretty simple. Or if you got other software out there you can use, it's pretty simple. The biggest reason we start using CAD work is when we have to work with other trades and then also when we need to have record documents for the project. So if they have a property manager, they always can go back and they can reference the drawings for as built and go, back and have that document set if we're not always there. And then also that document set is also incredibly important as we are, sending out our service teams. If we've got new people coming in and coming out, they may not be familiar with the property. So having that record documents that they can go back and refer to on big estates, it's invaluable.

Very cool. I think, you know, I'm hearing you talk about this out loud. I think this is why sometimes I get in trouble with the design, people in the, in the landscape lighting world, because like, the average lighting job is not massive. I mean, it's not 510 thousand dollars. And it's like, there's, there's only so much design that can happen here. And really what you need is an as built at that point. So, yeah, I'm not going to charge for design. I'm not going to charge for, I'm just going to go tell them how much it is and they're going to say yes or no.

You know, it's a case by case basis. Look, you're dealing at five to, five to 15, $20,000. You're dealing with a different client than somebody that's paying $200,000, for a lighting project. So there's a different level of expectation, going forward, and you're also competing with a whole different set of other people in the lighting design. You might be at ah, $20,000. You might be competing with three other guys, and so you need to be, you know, you need to play ball in that park. And you may not, you may not get a design fee, but you could put it into your product and figure out a way that you can get your money back that way.

Exactly.

But when you're talking about, you know, someone that's in a whole different level of estate, they're expecting to pay design because they've hired an architect, they've hired a landscape architect, they've got AV guys that are drawing all these plant sets up, and you have to create, record, record documents and construction documents to go along with it. So you're playing in a different sandbox at that point, and so you can justify your design fees quite easily.

Yeah, makes total sense.

There are four pillars to lighting design: safety, aesthetics, functionality

Is there a time when you mentioned, like, the prescriptive approach versus artistic, where, like, the functionality supersedes design? you know, there's instances where, like, from a design standpoint, we need this, but now it's maybe a trip hazard or now maybe there's a problem with some glare or whatever it is from a different location. How do you handle that?

Yeah, so obviously the number one thing in lighting, you know, there's really four pillars to lighting. when we, when we're talking about design, we're talking about functionality. So the number one thing, and Bill Laughlin always said this, the, ah, founder of nightscaping, the number one thing you have to be careful for is you have to make a site safe. That's number one. I mean, that's the point of lighting, is letting people navigate that property safely. That's how it all started. So that's number one. So you got to make it safe. another big one. You got to make it usable. So people have sometimes spent, geez, I'm working on a project right now. They spent a million and a half in their backyard in revising a landscape. It's like, good night. And you want to be able to, you need to be able to go out, and hopefully you can use that space at night if you don't like. What did you buy? You work all day and you come.

Home, they're only home at night.

Yeah, yeah. Right. So you got to, you got to be able to add some usability. That's the second pillar. Third pillar, obviously, is going to be security. we have a lot of, a lot of wives or husbands are traveling passive, security around the doors and the windows up. Lighting weak. It's actually better because it's better for their cameras because it creates a greater level of contrast. it's not so high contrast between the really bright red lights and the really dark shadows. It's a more even illumination around the doors and the windows. We're eliminating hiding points. So security is always something to consider in the design, and oftentimes it happens passively as we're illuminating, you know, windows, doors, and around the fronts of houses. So that happens. And then, obviously, the number one thing most people think about is aesthetics. So, in those four pillars constitute everything that revolves around landscape, lighting design. And in those orders, really, safety is the number one concern. If we can do it aesthetically and make it safe, fantastic, even better. But sometimes you got to be, you know, sometimes a path lights, a path light. You got to put a path light there, and, you got to look at every situation individually. So going in those orders of that hierarchy is always kind of a good way to go. When you talk about design, just don't.

Take a picture of it and submit it for a design award.

Yeah, there's a lot. A lot of projects I haven't submitted.

Wait, Tim Ryan did that? I would add a fifth one to that. And it's happened over the last few years is mental health. You know, I think that's, like a fifth pillar. Pillar that, like, I think I'm big on it. Like, lighting changes my life. Like, every single night. I'm like, I can be in a bad mood, I can have a bad day, but when I. When it gets dark, I feel so good just going out and sitting in my backyard, you know, it's just such a, Even driving to the front of my house because I don't have much landscaping out there. Just seeing my house, I'm like, feels good to go home to a resort every night, you know, you're so right.

You don't do lighting design; what you do is lifestyle enhancement

So people get in the lighting industry and, you know, talk about, oh, what do you do for a living? Oh, I install lights. No, I don't do that. So a lot of what we, we do and what we should be focusing on and anybody out here in the lighting industry, if you guys are listening, you don't install lights. You don't do lighting design. You know, what you do, it's lifestyle enhancement. That's what you do. you're taking somebody's space, and you're making it so they can truly enjoy that space much better.

Love it. I'm taking notes. let's talk about,

Tim Smith: How do you design on a budget with contractors

Oh, the last one on design is, how do you design on a budget, like they're sold on you and then you realize, like, they're just not sold on lighting yet. Even though you showed them the cool photos and stuff. And I know a lot of times, like, you show them the portfolio and it overcomes it. But there are some people that still are just like, that's fine, Tim, we're not giving you 50k. I'll give you ten.

Yeah, yeah. So, no, that's, that's a, fantastic question. So that goes back to part of my, part of my interview process. And look, I understand, you know, people there at various stages, they've just invested in a huge landscape project or they get something, a new kitchen in their house. They would love to spend money on lighting, but they may not see the vision yet. And that's okay. people are going to relate to this story. So when you go in and sell, the way I approach it is I go in and I ask the why, but I ask what's the biggest why and what's the second biggest why? Why? When I say why, it's like, why am I here? What's your pain point? Why do you need lighting? Why do you feel you need lighting? What's it, how is this going to change your life and the way you interact and use your property? Tell me why.

Nice.

And once I understand the top three, then what I can do is I can say, okay, this is what I'm going to do. I'm going to put together a proposal for number one, why? Number two, why? Number three, why? And they're all separate now. Number one, why? When you look at number one, why misses Smith, it's going to look like a complete design. It's not going to look like I pulled pictures out of it. If you can't afford number one, why? And nothing else, you're talking to the wrong person. Just call me, call me in a year when you have some more money put aside and let's do it. But everything that we do, that number one, why? Let's do it. Let's make it intentional. It's ten k, it's not 50k. So let's do number one, why? And then in six months, let's do number two, why? And let's do this in phases. We can build out that hierarchy in phases and then put in our, put in our HubSpot, put in our schedule. That, okay, we did. Why number one with misses, misses Smith, put it in your calendar, call her in nine months, touch base and say, hey, Miss Smith, we talked about why number two, are we ready for that yet? And then start working through those phases with them. So eventually you get to 50,000. It may take you three to four years, right. But you'll get to it. You just need to have a plan and understand why, why you're building these phases out and complete designs.

I love it. Yeah, that's great advice. And we all know it's so addictive. Like, they, they can't, they can say no today, but they're. They're adding lights within six months.

Well, it is. You know what? It's. I'm going to tell you something. This is weird. So regionally, like, our Nashville office is crazy. And I don't know if they're just. I'm nothing against California. It's love California. So, it's my, it's my caveat there. So people from California moving to Nashville, I don't know if they just. They got to have it all. They want it all right now, right? It's all or nothing. And so when we go sell projects in Nashville, it's like, they want it all, right, just. Just give it all to me. And I don't want it at all. But it's funny. You get in some regions, and I know some of you guys listening are going to relate to this. You get in some regions of the country that are much more conservative. I, know, Indiana, where I'm at, for example, you'll go into a property. You know, the homeowner has money, and what they're doing is they're sizing you up and they'll size up their contractors, and they're not going to give you, they're going to give you a hundred thousand right off the bat, but they might give you 15 or they might give you 25. And what they're doing, Ryan, is approving you. They're going, is this because they've had so many bad contractors in the past, they don't know anything about you? They're going to go, yeah, I see your vision. I like what you're doing. But I'm only going to give you a small piece right now in phase one. And then they're not going to tell you, but they're evaluating you. And then by the end of the project, I can't tell you how many times I've had them come back and say, okay, we love this. Do two, phase two and three now, too, because they saw that you performed. It's just, it's weird. It's. It's how you have to navigate the psychology of the midwest and in some of the more conservative states. But as long as you understand that going in the mindset and build out your hierarchies and your, in your why categories, it's fine.

I like it fine working that way. I learned that the hard way because I would lose out on these massive projects. I mean massive at one point to me was like 10,000. Yeah, you know, but then it was 50,000, then 100,000 and, and and I realized that that was the case and so what I started doing was like, let's say it's a hundred thousand dollar project. I'll do four areas, like 25, 25, 25. And then they would, they would start with 25 and literally like as long as we showed up on time, we said what we said we were going to do, they loved it. Then it's like, you know what? Wide open. Just finish the other three areas. It wasn't a two year wait or anything like you said.

As long as you are prepared, you'll get other sections

Like they just want to test because they've been screwed over by someone and they'd rather just lose 25 as a risk instead of risk 100. So as long as you are prepared and you know, this is where like people like, oh, I had to. We're moving back two days. Sorry, we couldn't make it. Whatever. You just potentially lost out on future work just because you're not organized or because you lied to someone about when you could be there or whatever it is. So all, all things important that people are always evaluating us well, exactly.

And to go, you know, even further into what you said about breaking that up into 425 thousand dollars sections. $25,000 is an easy bite for a lot of people, right? Versus 100,000. No problem. I can, I can take that smaller bite. But it's important when you get on there you proven yourself. you've got, you've got the work, you've got that customer for life. If you've done a good job, you've treated them well, you've built good rapport, you've done good work. They're never going to go to anybody else as long as you stay in front of them. You keep that relationship going, you're maintaining that system, they're never going to go to anybody else. You're the lighting guy for life. And so you'll get those other $25,000, you know, sections as long as you maintain that relationship and you do a good job, do what you say you're going to do.

Love it.

You've been through several organizations, so maybe give your perspective on each

I want to ask you about, I guess I think there's three organizations, but if there's more, that's fine, too. you know, I I was never a member of any of this stuff, and I take. I, like, I was, like, not gonna join any of these things in the past, so. But now I've been through several of them. There's AOlp, there's, Illy, and now there's Ellie. And I don't know if there's any others, but those are kind of the ones I know of. And I. And I know you, like, represent kind of all of them. You're on the board of. Of, Illye. Now, I've seen you at AOlp. I don't know if you represent all of them. I want to put you in a bad spot here. But, you've been through these organizations. Maybe if you could just give your perspective on, like, what you think each one is for. And if someone's like, man, I don't know, which one should I go to? I'm in this stage.

Can we talk about the organizations for a little bit? Each organization has a different offering

Can we talk about the organizations for a little bit?

Yeah, that's. And that's a great question, Ryan, because each organization, I think, has a little bit different offering. you know, as we look together, it's. I don't look, you know, being on the board with Ellie, I don't look like I compete. I don't. I don't think I compete with Aolp. I don't think I compete with Ellie. I think we all kind of have our own lanes that we drive in, and we, we fulfill a specific purpose in the industry. So, going back, if you start looking at, obviously, the oldest organization is AOLP. It used to be the low voltage lighting institute of America, I think was what it was under Bill Lachlan when they started it years ago. And, you know, I look at their organization now, they did a really good job as kind of a grassroots, from the bottom up, taking people that are in the green industry, whether it be irrigation guys, landscape guys, and saying, hey, come on. Come on over. Let's. Let's. Let's teach you about how to do lighting right. Let's teach you. Let's teach about the principles of installing a system that you have, the CLBLT, the certified low voltage lighting technique. your guys should take that if you got service teams out there taking us, no joke. About 60, percent pass, 40% fail. They think they got it, and they fail. So it's good. You learn really good principles there. And so they started that organization to help with their techs and then they have, the certified outdoor lighting design program, which I had never taken. I'm actually taking it this year just because I wanted to understand, that program a little bit. And what I look at AOLP is they're a great organization. If somebody is in the green industry and they're wanting to really understand lighting, they're wanting to network with people in the lighting industry and have people that they can call upon for advice. AOP is a fantastic organization for that. get in, learn the basic principles of lighting design, learn, the basic principles of installation, how to do it right and have some good mentors and people you can rely on. That's AOLP. when I look at, illy, the international Landscape Lighting Institute obviously was founded by Jan Moyer. it's a different animal. And I know it's evolving as we go forward, too, where AOLP is kind of focusing on kind of the green industry, pulling it in. I look at Ily as we do. We do have contractors that are kind of looking to get to the next level. So I look at, for guys that are wanting to do those jobs that are five to $30,000, $40,000, I look at AOlp as kind of that vehicle to get people up and going, get them started teaching the fundamentals. When I look at Ily, and you went through it, and so you remember, you know, a lot of what goes through Ily is about documentation. It's about pre visual, pre visualization. So when we go out and we do the trainings, it's, it's primarily about design. And you're spending a lot of time going out. And if you remember, we had to do the, you know, the luminous composition maps where you're, you're mapping things out and you're pre visualizing the lighting levels and the depths of what you're creating. And that really gets you out of your shell where you're starting to think, okay, I'm seeing this scene in front of me. How do I put my night eyes on and see this at night, pretty visually? And how do I want to create, you know, different light levels? Different light levels are going to create movement, and depth. And then once I get that now, how do I get hands on, take all this product that's out there? How do I create that with my team? And then beyond that now, how do I create record documents that I can hand off to a maintenance superintendent or a property manager or even my service team? Or if you're just purely a designer, how do I hand this off to an installation company to go and just purely install it. How do I give them all that information that they need? So Ily is about understanding the design principles. And the number one thing, when I went through Ily, and this was back in 23 or fall of 22, when I went through and I went through and I thought, what can they teach me, right? What do I have been in a long time? What are they going to teach me? And, you know, you go through and you just go in with an open mind. And I realized, oh, my gosh, there are so many talented people in here. And the number one thing I took away is I'm overlighting everything. Overlighting everything extremely too much and not getting enough contrast and depth. And what Illye supported me, and I'm, you know, not trying to pump up on the board, so I got to pump up the organization a little bit. Right? It teaches, it teaches you, it gives you a different eye. And so with someone coming into that, if they've gotten kind of the basics of lighting under their belt, they understand the mechanics of how to install a system. The next step is really, now, on your journey in lighting, you really need to start training your eye to see compositions, that are there in the daytime. You need to learn how to create movement through a scene with different light levels. And like I said, using darkness, shadow and light together and then managing light levels and just being very sensitive to those things. And so, Ilya is, like, working on the next level of documentation when you're starting to work on more of a professional level. And I know plans for Ilya is to go and refine that, refine that process just a little bit more and create a little more differentiation in that industry. To do that for professionals coming through.

It definitely helps you think bigger. Like, you're saying, like, I didn't, I didn't even think that you could just be a designer, like, and then document this stuff to have. It's like, no, like, I'm a designer slash installer, you know, like, whatever you want to call yourself. We all, not all, but the most of us in this industry are designing, ad installing, you know?

Exactly.

Then you're like, wait a minute, like, I could put ten lights. Oh, I could put 30 lights on a tree. That's crazy. So, you know, even though they don't tout themselves as, like, a business, like, I'm, I feel like I'm the business guy, but, like, yeah, people do leave with confidence there to be like, I'm a designer, you know, like, yeah, I'm gonna go sell more lights on my next job. It's probably not gonna be 30 lights on the tree, but instead of three, it's gonna be eight, you know, or whatever it is, you know?

Yeah. And what's cool about it is it gives you. We're often so restricted by budget when they go out. And one thing that Ilya forge you when you're working with your team is you have no budget. The only budget you have is the number of light fixtures you have in your box. And even then you can probably go steal some from. That happens. It happens. It really does. You get scope creep, and so, that happens. But you really get to understand what is possible. If I had every, every tool at my disposal and I really wanted to light this the way I really generally wanted to, what could I do? And then learning insights from your mentors and your other teammates just have phenomenal ideas and it's so refreshing. You think you've got it all and we're getting a rut. And what illy does it just completely. If, if you allow yourself, if you check your ego at the door, you have an open mind, you go into it, you get so, so much insight from other people, and you can learn from everybody around you. It's such a great community and, I don't know.

Mark Carlson has started Ellie, which is an online design course

I love it. So it's, it's a great community. When you talk about Ellie, that's a little bit different. So Mark Carlson has started that. you and I, obviously, we went through the same course together, which was fun. We, with the le course, I think that's it could be for anybody. So he has basic courses that, you know, the fundamentals of design, learning how to see as a designer. Again, a lot of that, a lot of the basic courses, that you would see, like at AOlP. So there's a little bit of duplication in all these courses and crossover. Ah, because we're all talking the language of light. We're all talking landscape, lighting design. So there's some crossover, of course. but one of the things that affords you with Ellie, it's all, it's all online, so you can learn virtually. So if you don't have time to go to AOlp, you don't have time to go to ily, to an intensive course hands on for five days, but you still want to learn some of these principles. Mark, is putting together coursework. He's got individuals that are coming in that are, that are pros in the industry, been doing it a long time. And if it's. If it's more convenient for you to watch a recording, learn it at night, around your business, it's a good program for that.

Love it. I think that's great.

Right now there's big ones. The main three are probably Ellie, Ellie and Aolp

Is there any other. Those are kind of the main. Main ones. Right. Right now there's big ones.

You know, you have the Iald, the international association of Lighting Designers. that deals a lot. You get a lot more of the high end architectural designers where your people are doing, you know, municipal type lighting, hospitality, a lot of interior lighting designers. So it's. It's much broader, much bigger. But there are other associations you can get involved in, obviously. The ies, illumination engineering society. it's very. Again, it's another one that's very broad. but it doesn't really focus so much. The main three are probably Ellie, Ellie and Aolp that really focus on the landscape lighting industry.

Right? Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, obviously.

And obviously, Ryan Lee, lighting for profits.

Well, we haven't seen you around at landscape lighting secrets, but I mean, who's keeping track, right? Let's see. So I guess let's kind of. Let's try to land the plane here a little bit.

I'm curious about what you guys are doing with your design studio

Maybe let's finish talking about the lighthouse group. Like what? you know, I've seen this kind of happening a little bit. Just, not necessarily loudly, but I see kind of what you guys are doing. I'm curious. It's like, man, what's going on? You've got, How many locations are you up to now?

20? two locations currently. Right.

Okay. And then tell me kind of what you're. What you guys are doing now. It seems different. It's like a. I don't know if it's a rebrand or what, but it's. It's different than the lighthouse. You know, I don't. The lighthouse group that I knew before. Right.

Yeah. So, you know, we look, obviously, you know, we looked at the economy. We saw how things are. And it's not just the economy. There's a lot of people getting involved in landscape lighting. And that's. That's fine. That's good.

It's.

It's a. It's a great art. but it is getting crowded.

The.

The middle sector. You know, we're talking about homes that are in that 750 to 1.5 million that is getting really crowded. A lot of people getting involved in the lighting industry. And so it gets really, really competitive. And we know, obviously, you know, as the, economy starts to contract a little bit. everybody's seen it. Those, those middle, middle markets, they tend to tighten up a little bit. The competition doesn't go away, but the supply goes away or the demand, demand, demand for what, you know, what you're doing goes away a little bit. So everybody's fighting over this. But the one thing that, like I said earlier, during recession, during hard times, the rich always have money and they're usually making more of it. And so we, we decided and saw, you know, look, we don't want to, we don't want to play in that middle market sandbox as much anymore. And so we've really shifted back since I, was probably like, you know, 2021, 2022. We did some brand storming and tried, to realign our organization to where we're focused more on the high end spec type projects now. We're not fully there yet. anybody that's tried to go out and build relationship knows it's, incredibly difficult thing to do over a period of time, and it takes a long time. But we shifted our branding, we shifted our website, we shifted our visuals to appeal, more to high end integrators, home integrators, landscape, architects, home builders. We're trying to appeal more to the high end. And to that end, what we've done is, you know, we have lighthouse, lighthouse outdoor lighting. we started a design studio and, right now it's, it's fairly new, the lighthouse design studio. I've got one other designer with me in the studio, Brandon Keeler. He, used to own lighter right out of Houston, Texas. he, joined us back. It's been about a year and a half, two years now. Sold lidar right to Lighthouse. it's now lighthouse of Houston. And, so what we're doing with the design group is that's where we're focusing purely on design. That's, where we're doing the business development. We're meeting with architects regularly. we're coming out in the areas where we know we have offices trying to build relationships, for our local teams for what we can. And then we're always looking for veteran designers, to come on board and, guys that have had their hands in the dirt for 1520 years and, you know, they got nothing left to prove and they just kind of want to, they want to design. They enjoy the design process and that's what we've created. Design studio for is kind of a safe haven for designers that have done it. And, we're always looking for more designers.

That's cool. I mean, it's an, it sounds like an awesome opportunity.

I'm also teaching the advanced photography course, so I've got three seats open

I've seen, you know, I've checked out your site and stuff. I'm like, oh, yeah, this is cool. You can tell it's, it. You're going after a different market. And, yeah, I met Brandon multiple times. The first time I met him, I don't remember that. I was like, wait, what's your name? He's like, we just met. I'm like, well, I saw the left side of you. Your right side looks different, right?

So he's got one of those last names that's hard to pronounce. Yeah, look at the spelling.

Well, you guys have a cool team. man, thanks so much, man. I really appreciate you coming on here. And, yeah, I literally was taking notes the whole time, so. Really, appreciate it, man. Shared, a lot of gold nuggets for us. And, yeah, thanks for everything you do for the, lighting community as well. It's just, it's just nice to have awesome people like you as resources, and you've got that, like, leader mentality teacher willing to learn at the same time. It's just awesome. So thanks a ton. I appreciate it.

Yeah, it's a genuine pleasure. And, for one plug, we've got the, I'm on the board of directors, so the LEIC is coming up. There's available for November 7 to the 12th. It's going to be in post oak in tulsa, Oklahoma. I'm also teaching the advanced photography class, so I've got three or four seats left open for that. So if you're interested in advancing your photography, reach, out to me. We'll get you signed up, and, you won't want to miss that one. So 2025 is a year to get your, get your game up if they want it.

So if they want to. The photography course is also through Ily, right?

It is, yeah. They can go on the Ily website, iliedu. org.

Okay.

They can register there for either the IC or the Ap. And, once they sign up, I'll reach out to them and, we'll have a conversation about where they're at. But the advanced photography course is really, once you've gotten your basics out of the way, learn your basic camera functions, understand how to work with your camera a little bit, and then come to the advanced photography course.

Remember, it is advanced. And, actually, a good question from Scott. It's the same week. It is.

It is the same week. It runs concurrently. And then our class, what we do at the advanced photography course is we'll go out, we'll shoot independently at night around the city, and then we all join up for the reveal night, which is when we invite the city and the residents to come and take a look at what the, intensive course students have put together. And, we go out, and then as a class, we go out and we photograph that and edit it together after next day.

Yeah, that's cool. Yeah. One day, I'm going to take photography serious, but for now, and I will say this, if you're not going to sign up for the course and take it serious, hire a professional that's good with nighttime outdoor lighting, because I promise you, like, your pictures are not as good as you think. I used to take, I show this in my, like, and I don't teach, like, I teach the basics of the basics, but I show people, like, here's what I thought looked good, and I sold tons of jobs using my photography. And so I thought, there's not a problem if people are still buying. But then I hired a professional, and it's like, just night and day. I mean, it's just, it's. It's incredible. So, yeah, if they want it so elite, you do. And, that's coming up. November. I've been as an attendee, and I, too, learned a ton. I didn't, I didn't go in thinking, like, what are they gonna teach me? I knew I was gonna learn stuff, and I learned more than I thought. and then I went back as a mentor, which was a cool experience. It's cool that they allow you to do that, invite you back, because you learn, probably more as a mentor because you know, more of what to expect and stuff, too, so.

Well, it is. And look, guys that have been in this a long time come in. You have. You have so much to offer the industry, that you, your experiences come in, go through the course. It's good if you're experienced. You've been doing this a long time, and you go through the course and you have a good attitude, there's a good chance you'll be asked to come back and be a mentor, which is one of the coolest experiences you can do.

So, yeah, it is cool.

Tim Ryan: If someone gets. Get ahold of you on LinkedIn

All right, man. Well, that was awesome. And I guess how do. If someone gets. Gets ahold of you? Get. Get ahold of you? How do they get ahold of you?

Yes, you can get me on LinkedIn. Tim Ryan at, LinkedIn. You can get me there. Or, you can always email me Tim dot r at lighthouse dash lights. com.

Love it.

All right, guys. Great show, Tim. Thanks, Ryan

All right, guys. Great show, Tim. Thanks, man.

Hey, Ryan, always a pleasure. Thank you, sir.

Everyone have an awesome week. Keep moving forward. Don't forget. What was my acronym? I already forgot it. B one ref.

Yeah, there is.

Go get your b one ref on. See you guys.