Lighting for Profits - Episode 206
In this episode of Lighting For Profits, we’re joined by Paul Mulkey Jr., the powerhouse behind Landscape Lighting of Charleston and a generational landscape services business known for crafting some of Charleston’s most high-end gardens. Paul shares how shifting from chasing “vanity revenue” to focusing on “sanity profit” completely transformed his business—and how Landscape Lighting Secrets (LLS) helped him triple his revenue without sacrificing profitability.
Welcome to Lighting for Profits. All Light. All light. Here is your host, Ryan Lee
Welcome to Lighting for Profits.
All light. All light.
All Light.
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Here is your host, Ryan Lee. All light. All light. All light.
Let's go, guys.
Ryan Lee: We're going to talk about profit versus revenue in landscape lighting
I'm Ryan Lee, your host of Lighting for Profits powered by Emory Allen. Hey, I don't know if you know this, but, yeah, we're still, still trending. It's the number one landscape lighting show in Charleston, South Carolina. I think it's like a couple weeks in a row, so that's kind of a big deal. If you're looking to start or grow a landscape lighting business, you're definitely in the right place. Today we got an awesome show. We're going to be talking about this journey of growth and, profit versus revenue. What's more important? Obviously, we want profit, but no one really brags about their profit. They're always just bragging about their revenue. So we're going to get into that. The journey of building a lighting business is going to be awesome. We got Mr. Paul Mulkey Jr. Of Landscape Lighting of Charleston. And, this is going to be an awesome conversation. I met Paul, maybe a little over a year ago. And, I'm actually going to, I'm going to wait for him to join, but I want to, I want to share the story, which I was just blown away at something I learned from him, like, literally like the first day we talked. So that was kind of cool.
We got Secrets Summit coming up next month in Florida
but we're going to have Paul on in just a few minutes and, before we do, a couple of quick reminders, in just. It's next month, so we got Secrets Summit coming up and, you have to be a member of Landscape Lighting Secrets or a member of Lighting Academy. So we're extending a wider invitation. If you've been to a Landscape lighting live or if you are in Lighting Academy or you're in Landscape Lighting Secrets, you need to be there. if you have any questions, you can email me@supportionlee coaching. com but if you want to get your ticket, it's secretsummit. com. if you're in Landscape Lighting Secrets, check your email before you get your ticket because we sent out some promo codes for you, so you don't have to pay full price. It's secretsummit. com and it's September 25th through 27th. Guys, this is going to be insane because number one, it's in West Palm Beach, Florida. That place does not suck. Okay? So it's an amazing place. Greg Matthews owns Luxury Illumination. He's one of our Top clients. And he also is having a 10 year anniversary party. Now it's going to be combined with Secret Summit. So, it's going to be an epic three days, two days of Mastermind, really building your business, networking with other Pros, and then one day of party partying for the luxury Illumination 10 year anniversary party. It's going to be epic, it's going to be amazing. And I want to see you guys down there. So if you have any questions, like I said, reach out. But if you're ready to go, go to secretsummit .com, get your ticket. And, also I want to thank everyone that's given me those five star reviews. I've been asking, I've been begging and I'm probably not going to stop. so if you haven't gone to Apple and give me that five star review, you can go to Spotify, but Apple's cool because you can click 5 stars on lighting for Profits podcast and then you can actually write something. It says write a review. if you've gotten value from one of our amazing guests, then please go give us that five star review. And again, guys, in just a few minutes we got Paul Mulkey Jr. The owner of Landscape Lighting of Charleston. And, really, really looking forward to this conversation. And, if you are looking to scale, you're looking to grow your lighting business, you got a lot to learn on today's show. But before we have him on, I do want to, talk about something that actually just came up this week inside the Landscape Lighting Secrets, Members only Facebook group.
In lighting, you're providing an experience rather than selling fixtures
first of all, you're not selling fixtures, okay? A lot of us, people like, well, how much you charge per light? Ah, you're not even selling designs. I mean, a lot of us, a lot of people are really proud of like the designer they become. what you're actually doing in this crazy lighting world that we get to play around with is you're providing an experience. And at least if you're charging what you should be charging and building a real business, you're providing an experience. And if you want to charge a premium price, you better provide a premium experience. And there's a lot of pieces to the equation. The equation is the experience, right? I mean, starting with branding. So when someone, even if someone's referred to you, if they don't find you online, someone's like, oh, let me check out this company. Like, what does your branding look like? What does it say? How does it communicate value to the client? What does your online presence look, like your website, your social media, how you answer the phone, okay? It's really all about this whole, experience. But I remember back when I was running my lighting business, there was a time when we started to grow, right? And at first there's different phases, right? But we started to actually get some traction started, get some sales in, start getting booked out a little bit. Felt really good. and there was a week I had a tight schedule. I had everything booked Monday through Friday. Everything's just going to be just great. Well, the problem is Monday, the install took an extra day because the ground was like solid rock. I had no idea it was going to be so hard for the guys to trench. I mean, they were getting out like grinders and sauce and all this stuff to try to trench, you know. Have you had one of those days? Right? So we, we pushed Monday into Tuesday. Well, that means Tuesday gets pushed to Wednesday and Wednesday is now double booked. And so what do you do? And then, by the way, Wednesday it rained. So now we're really, you know, we thought we were screwed before. Now we're really screwed. So Thursday night I'm rescheduling Friday's job at 9 o' clock at night. They're upset. I lost trust, I lost potential for referrals. I lost momentum because I didn't build a buffer. And, I was busy. I mean, I, I made money, but I didn't make profit. If I had just like focused and done a buffer of like, hey, I'm only going to do two jobs this week instead of five, like, everything would have been fine.
Landscape Lighting Secrets members only group discusses project scheduling
I'm sharing you, sharing this with you, because today what I want to talk about real quickly is project scheduling. And, by the way, shout out to Paul Val. I, think you actually say his name differently, but Paul Val is what he goes by on Facebook. he asked this question in the Landscape Lighting Secrets Members Only group. He's like, hey, what happens when one job isn't quite done, but the next job is already scheduled for the next day? Do you keep the crew together, until the first job is done? Like, who's in charge of scheduling? Another great question. Do you give install dates right when the job is sold? Like, how do you handle reschedules? And he has his own process, but he's, he's generating discussion and seeing what everyone does. And, these are great questions, are real questions that every growing lighting business is going to face at some point and most of us learn the hard way. So I want to share with you guys a few Tips that, I've learned the hard way, that hopefully you can learn the easy way. So, number one is don't, ever run at 100% capacity. And maybe if you go read some, like, college textbook about capacity, they would be like, this guy's an idiot. But I just know this is how life works. So if, even if you can schedule five days a week, like, only plan three or four, because that buffer is going to become your lifesaver. whether it's rain or a sick team member or someone calling in, on a Monday, it's like, oh, I'm sick. Like, why are you always sick on Mondays? job site delays. Maybe you're waiting for something else, right? But something is always going to go wrong. And it's easier to move someone up than push them back, right? So pushing them back kills momentum, it kills trust with your client, and it ruins the experience. So under promise, install dates, and over deliver when you can move them up. I promise you, this is, like, it makes it so much easier. Yes. You need someone to manage the calendar because you got to be like, oh, hey, so. And so you're scheduled for next Thursday. We now can do your install on Friday. Does that work for you? And maybe they can't do it. Go Friday. So then you got to call the next one, Right? But it's way easier to pull people up than push them back. And it keeps the trust that you've built with your client. So if you're, like, not getting as many referrals after the jobs, maybe it's your scheduling. Maybe it has nothing to do with how many times you ask for a referral. Maybe you lost trust throughout this experience. Number two, you got to know your daily overhead number. A lot of people, when they don't control their schedule the right way, they end up losing money because they don't realize that they have this daily overhead number. Everyone has one. Most people don't know what it is, but that doesn't mean you don't have one. Okay? And this is the number that it costs you to wake up regardless of if you sell a job or install a job or anything. There is a number that you spend for insurance, your trucks, food, like, things that you need to survive. Right? And a lot of us don't pay ourselves what we should, but if you're like, okay, I'm going to pay myself 150 grand, then you have a daily number that you should count as income that should be there regardless of if you're going to work or not. Because you need to pay your bills. Right? Right. So we, we help you figure out all this inside landscape planning secrets. But you can do this on your own. You can create a spreadsheet, figure out exactly how much it costs you to operate your business. The pro tip here is to schedule number, of days that are available. Like, if you're up north, like, you might only have 180 or 200 working days. You don't have 365 days to work. In a calendar year, no matter where you're located, no one is going to have 365 revenue days. And so the lower the number, the better, because then it gives you a conservative number to go off of. Right. And then you want to put in expenses, like, future expenses. Like, okay, maybe it only costs you $1,500 to operate today, but if you want to hire an operations manager, get a shop, and get two more trucks, how much is that going to cost you? Now, your daily overhead might be 2,500, 3,500 a day. That will help you with your pricing. The reason this is important, because if you schedule a $10,000 job and you know your daily overhead is $1,500, and you're supposed to finish that job in one day, and it rolls into day two, well, now you're screwed. Because if you were operating at, like, a 15 profit margin and you just lost your 15%, that, 1500 the next day, like, you didn't make any money. This is. This happened to me over and over and over again, you guys. This, this might be happening to you where you're like, man, I'm doing pretty good, but I don't know where the money is. It might be because you have a scheduling problem, so you need to know your numbers or you're flying blind. number three, never assign a crew to the next job until that current one is complete. So you want to avoid the Jenga Tower. Okay? The Jenga Tower approach to scheduling is like when one wobbly job causes the whole thing to fall, and then it just puts you. I mean, you have all this thing carefully, built, and then one job can't get done because of whatever. So an employee that goes rogue or break you break something or, or, you know, the weather happens or whatever. And then it just this, this delay. And so now you make not just one client upset because you didn't get job done in time, but now the 30 behind them. Right? So you should finish that job that day. But what if they don't? Right? So leaving that buffer Avoids the domino effect that can lead to weeks of phone call reschedules and, and pissed off clients, you know. So, number four, communicate dates carefully with room to shift. So, even if you're like newer in landscape lighting, you're not booked out six weeks. Just tell people you're booked out six weeks. It'll help your sales too, because people will be like, wow, they're in high demand. but one of the things you can do is just say, hey, we're currently scheduled three to four weeks out. we'll contact you the week of your install to confirm the exact day based on weather and project flow. Okay? That thing. That way, like when things change and they will, you're, not apologizing like you're already in control. So, you don't have to tell them the exact day, right. All the time. And that way you can be moving things in the background like, oh, you're moving people up and back and you don't have to notify your client every time that happens. That's a, that's chaos that they just don't need to know about.
Number five, understand that rescheduling happens, okay? Life's not perfect. Things happen. So be proactive not reactive
And then when you know you're going to be there, then you can commit to that, to that date. Number five, understand that rescheduling happens, okay? Life's not perfect. Things happen. So even if you told them the date, it's all about how you communicate. So be proactive, not reactive. This is so important. Some people are like, yeah, I don't know why they're so upset. It was like, because they called you and had to find out you need to be proactive. So it's a simple phone call. Hey, what's up, John? Just want to give you a heads up. We had a project extend an extra day, you know, due to some change in scope. And we're going to shift your install from Thursday to Friday. Really, appreciate your patience. And, this really just ensures that we never rush a job and allows us to give you the same project, or to give your project the same attention, you know, so, you can handle this. And people don't care. If you make it a big deal, then they're going to react and make it a big deal as well. But just let people know, hey, this is part of the process and we're going to get you done, your project done as soon as possible. And then number six, if you, if you have like a three man crew, well, let me say this, A lot of people are like, well, they'll ask me like, well, how Much can I get done in a day? Like 10,000, 12,000, 20 lights, 30 lights? Like I don't know, like how would I know how much you can install in a day? I have clients that can install 25, $30,000 in a day with a four man install team. And then I have other clients that struggle to get $10,000 done in a day with a three man crew. Right. So I don't know what your efficiency is. Like, the only way you'll know is you start measuring. So if you have a two, man crew and they con they consistently knock out 25, 30 fixtures in an 8, 10 hour day, then that's your benchmark. Like you, you have to start measuring this yourself because I can't tell you what is normal. Like, what's normal to me is not normal for you. so you, you, if you guys just start tracking today, like, hey, I, on average one, I can do like two fixtures per man hour or whatever it is. Like you guys can come up with your own numbers. And then don't forget about other variables. Like is the site rocky? Are there long wire runs? does a client want extra lights added on the day of install? And some of these things you won't know, which is why you plan a buffer. but you can at least have averages. And you can say on average, I know we're going to do 30 days, which leads me or 30 lights in a day, which leads me to my seventh and final one, who's in charge of the schedule? and it needs to be someone that's involved. So you can't just pass this off to an admin who's never done an install and doesn't know anything and expect them to succeed. Now I had my office manager do it, but I trained her and I taught her, hey, this is typically what we can do in a day. Here's the revenue and here's the number of lights, right? So we knew, okay, we can knock out 30 lights with this three man install team. But every once in a while she'd run it by me and say, hey, this is what I got is this work. And I'm like, oh, I forgot to tell you, that one is like a bigger estate. I know it's only 30 lights, but it's like these long runs, why don't we schedule two days for that? And also when I'm selling that, I know that. So I tack on extra money to cover my daily overhead. Right? so a lot of moving pieces here, but when, when you have someone in charge of the schedule and they get to own it, things become a lot easier. So, make sure it's someone who actually knows and is involved. And if it's you, that's fine, but you need to schedule time to do the schedule. So, wrap it up, and then we'll have Paul on in just a second. you know, when you're growing your business, your calendar is a profit tool. It's not a to do list. So every day that you miscalculate, like, every. Every time a job slides into tomorrow, like, it's costing you money, and maybe even more than that is credibility, like our clients. You guys, it's not about the one time $20,000 job that they give us today. It's about the lifetime value. And the lifetime value is like, okay, yeah, they did the front yard today. Well, six months from now, two years from now, they're going to do the backyard, and then they're going to move and they're going to do that house, and they're going to do their lake house, and then they're going to refer their friends, their family. Like the lifetime value of a, of a client landscape lighting is way higher than, than the initial. So if you're not really proactive in the experience, and we're just talking about a little piece scheduling right now, then you're going to miss out on the lifetime value. You're going to miss out on momentum that these bigger businesses have that you don't have right now. And it's because they're doing the small things, right? So know your capacity, track your margins, protect your calendar like it's your checking account, and I promise you, you're going to get a lot more. A, lot more traction. So today, go take 30 minutes, audit your next two weeks, see what it looks like. Are you, like, stacked in? Is everything too hot? You need to build some buffer. build in some of that breathing room your future self will. Thank you. so that's it. Thanks, Paul, for asking, the question and, being vulnerable in the group. So.
Emory Allen Scout Pro is perfect for subtle lighting applications
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Paul Mulkey joins the show to talk about his new album
all right, I think it's time. I feel like it's time. It's time. let's get, let's get Paul on here. Let's find the music. Where's the music? Oh, there it is. Welcome to the show, Mr. Paul Mulkey.
Jr. What's up everybody? Thank you all for having me.
Dude, I, I don't know if you're excited, but I'm really excited to have you on. it's been a little over a year since we met and I'm excited to kind of get a progress report. I, I hear some rumbles and stuff like that, but I'm excited for that.
You had a sports scholarship to Liberty University before starting your landscaping business
And before we get started, maybe you want to just do a quick introduction on who you are, and where you're from, what your business looks like and what your role is in it.
Absolutely. so I started in a, Well first I had a sports scholarship to Liberty University, one of the world's most obscure sports. But it was a, ah, paintball and, and so I started there. Did, yeah. Didn't want to have anything to do with, the family business. So, Mom's side and dad's side were both in the horticulture department. mainly design M and arborist. so I, I was there for a semester, was always into extreme sports. had some bro, had a broken wrist that I was unaware of and played the full semester. And then when I came home for Christmas, planned on just a normal Christmas break and came back and they had to take part of my hip and put it in my wrist. So I was not going back to Liberty the next semester. and prior to this, you know, I'd worked in, you know, my parents landscape company for you know, my entire life and in the tree business. And I was like, there's no way I'm doing all that labor. And so I was sitting on the couch with My friends, I had a cast on and my dad came home from work. We're all just sitting there on the couch basically just being potatoes. And he told me to be ready at 5am the next morning and I'd be in the truck with him. And that kind of started the the whole road that I'm on now.
Very cool.
So that, that got you back into the family business that you were avoiding
So that, that got you back into the family business that you were like I'm not going to be part of the family business.
And it sounds like absolutely none of it. Yep.
I sound like you had some prior experience of maybe some manual labor that you were trying to avoid.
Lots and lots of manual labor. So in the multi household you had to work one month of each summer. and it didn't have to be with family company so started working restaurants when I was like 14 and legally able to work. Paul Senior. and yeah we would, you know, we, we, we really have an awesome clientele base. so really working on some crazy properties. And it's really cool because I get to go back now and you know, see these properties, you know, grow into what they are. and you know, some of them are things that I, you know, little hedges, I, little plant planted myself and now they're bigger than, bigger than me. so yeah, really cool to come back. But getting to come in on that design, back inside the business side and ride around with my dad, my arm was broke, I got to fall in love with it. so here in Charleston we have Trident Technical College and they have a horticulture program. It was ran by a guy named Matt Fleming. And he brought me in under his wing. I kind of fell in love with all things horticulture. And then really we got off to a quick start designing some really crazy gardens and got to be a part of that and kind of worked my way from you know, crew, crew leader, you know, all the way through and have, have worn all hats and pretty much wear all hats now.
Very cool.
How did you become the landscape lighting guy for the company
So at what point did, did you like, did you discover landscape lighting? I'm sure you guys did some, I know you did some projects for, with that company, but it wasn't a full on landscape lighting business at that point. how did you become the landscape lighting guy for the company?
Yeah, so 2013, I started with the tree clinic. I'm 31 years old. And then in 2015 thereabouts. so we always had somebody subcontracted for lighting. he was, he was a good guy, did a good job. but it was one of those, you know, things that I kind of always had my eye on. and I really appreciated it. And my dad didn't really want to have anything to do with business at night. he was like, hey man, if you want to try this. And the good news was led was, you know, kind of, I wouldn't say groundbreaking, but at that time it was, you know, really becoming, you know, prominent and that's what you use. So it was an easier start than the halogen days. So bravo to all the guys before me that did all those calculations. I did, I did two halogen jobs and they taught me a lot, to say the least. but yeah, so 2015, really were just, I was just installing lights. I would like to say that I had a design. I go back to some of them and I'm not as proud as I would be. luckily, you know, most of our clients are long time clients. I kind of explain that we get through it and you know, kind of redesign, tweak it. and then about four to five years ago, I decided we're going to, you know, take this thing seriously. M. And then I was kind of just telling you about, I'd say 18 months two years ago, you know, I'm married. You know, we started to decide to have a family. and that's when things really started to double down. And you know, that's when I really started studying lighting. really trying to tweak in my designs and be a true company.
Was, was part of that desire to, to like find your own thing. Because it seems like a lot of people, friends of mine and people that I work with inside landscape lighting secrets, if they have like, if they come from like a family business, they're kind of like, I want to make my own impact. I want to make my own mark on the world. Was there some of that going on too?
There's a little bit of that, but our businesses coexist so much that, you know, it would be unfair for me to say that, you know, I'm doing this all alone. you know, we have a lot of shared clients. you know, and now it, now it's going the. Where we're bringing in a lot of clients, you know, for, for our family. It's called the tree Club as well. So. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that was in there. I would like to tell myself no. but I don't, I really don't think so. a lot of it came down to you know, that was, ah, you know, I wasn't making some crazy, you know, boss's son salary. I, was just, you know, a laborer there in the beginning. And, I needed to make more money and, it was a good way to do it. Like I said, LED was just coming out. I think it was John Deere still, but then site one, so, you know, kind of just popping in out of those stores, getting to see what was going on and. And then, man, once I. You know, these landscape projects can be so long, so difficult, so dirty, so expensive. you do a lighting job and it's just. It's quiet, it's clean, it's tight. And, you know, when you flip that switch on and we'll get to the, you know, kind of live designs, as I would like to call it. When you flip that switch on and you see those homeowners reaction, that is an addictive feeling.
We all. That's why we're all here. It's like you try to tell that to a normal person and that's like, they don't understand it, but we're crazy.
Well, you know, it's really cool. You know, I have a lot of friends, you know, being, you know, 30, 31. I have a lot of friends who are, you know, just now getting into their first yard or whatever it is. And, you know, I try to surround myself with people who do well. so, you know, they've done the kitchen renovation, they put the pool in, they've done, you know, whatever it may be. And, you know, that part, even just getting them outside is huge. because at first it's just like, hey, the interior of my house, I need a clean lawn. That's it. And then you start to realize, you know, the value on these outdoor living spaces.
Are you really selling a fixture or are you selling a demo
And you brought that up earlier, which was, you know, we need to change people's lives at the end of the day. So, you know, are you really selling a fixture? Yes, technically. but in my opinion, you're really selling that, you know, other dimension of the landscape that truly just doesn't exist.
Love it otherwise. Well, this was our. I remember the. On our. We were on a Zoom call and you decide. I can't remember if you decide. I'm pretty sure you decided. You're like, yeah, I'm in. You're like, I have a. I have a demo tonight. And I'm like, okay, cool. And I kept using the word demo. You might have been talking about live demo or whatever your term.
I call it demo. Now it's a live design.
Okay, now it's a live design. By the time I thought we were talking about the same thing. So that night, and I was like, oh, dude, cool. You know, I'm. And I still, like, love lighting design. I don't have an active, like, lighting business, but I was like, yeah, text me some photos. And you text me these photos. And I was like, dude, that's the coolest demo I've ever seen. Like, I'm like, dude, that looks legit. Like, that looks like an actual install. And. And tell everyone what you said. I guess. Do you remember what you said?
I don't remember what I said exactly, but, you know, so with the.
Client, tell us what you did, because I just thought it was a demo. Like. Yes.
Yeah.
Our demo process is I tell a client what our ballpark area is
So. So what we do, now there's a couple things excluded, but what Ryan got to see was, you know, we. Our demo process is I tell a client what our, you know, ballpark area that we're trying to be in is, and then as long as, you know, we have a good relationship, and I don't think I'm going to get burned. And to be clear, in the eight years, I had one client pull out an entire system, and then I would say 0.75 for the rest of the lights pulled out. so, I mean, this has been a pretty successful way to do things. But so essentially, we set up the entire system. Barry, wires, drill into the house, you know, whatever we need to do, and then they are actually able to, So I bring them outside, I encourage them to have a glass of wine. It's a fun night. Bring them outside, and I flip those lights on and ask, you know, do you want to add more? Is anything dark? and do you want to take anything out? And, you know, in a psychological way, people kind of fear losing things, especially when it. When it looks good.
I was. I was blown away. I was. Because I was zooming in on the pictures. I was like, how did he. I saw, like, this walkway, and you had lights on both sides. And I was like, I don't see a wire. I'm, like, zooming in. I'm like, what? Did he, like, Photoshop the wire out? Like, why would he Photoshop the wire out? To just send me a quick text. This isn't like, you know, a contest or anything. And then you're like, oh, no. Yeah, we just, like, do the whole install. I'm like, what? You do the whole install? Like, that's a demo.
That's crazy. And to this day, that's exactly how we do it. And, I really stand by it. it's not something I do not. And let me be clear, I do not, I wouldn't, I wouldn't suggest that people do this in markets that they don't know. you know, if you're just using, you know, Google my business and you're, you know, it's a cold lead. You know, there's some jobs that we won't do it on. but, you know, our average home that we're starting on is, you know, over the $5 million mark. and, you know, understand, you know, you obviously have to get, you know, a feel for that customer, make sure client, make sure that you're on the same page. But as long as you get them on the same page again, as I tell them, there's no liability in it for them. If they need, if they want to, they can rip every single light out.
That's cool. I like that. There's lots of different ways to win and I appreciate you sharing that. Like, hey, you know, if you're just running Google Ads to a cold audience or something like that, maybe this, maybe this isn't your strategy. If you've got a warm clientele and you've got to get that relationship that just because it works for someone else doesn't mean it's going to work for you. And just because it doesn't work for someone else doesn't mean it can't work for you. So I appreciate you sharing that.
You've started your own lighting business and it's relatively new
I want to talk about a little bit about your experience so far because it's relatively new. I mean, you've got experience obviously in the field, you've done lighting, but in terms of like, starting this new standalone lighting business that's separately ran, like, how are things going? is it, is it better than you thought? Harder than you thought? Like, how are you feeling right now? A couple years in, yeah.
Ah. So, you know, coming from running the family business, it's, it's actually been surprisingly easy. And I don't mean to say that like, in a way to make anybody else, you know, feel any certain way. but that being said, there's so much less moving parts than with, you know, full landscape construction and, you know, arboriculture. now the hours are long. you know, I'm still running the other family business. I'm at the shop at 5:30 in the morning every single day. And then, you know, in the summer when we have these, you know, demos, slash, live Designs, I can be out until 10:30 at night, so they can be really, really long days. So I would say the family situation, you know that that's the only part that I would say really makes it hard. But about two years ago when I said I was going to make things serious, I, you know, I went to my crew. At that point, you know, pretty much any, anybody inside our landscape construction company could come join one of our installs. and then I just told, you know, my main guys, I said, hey, look, you're responsible for the guys below you. If you think they're producing enough and that's going to benefit the job, perfect. If not, don't invite them. And so we went from probably using 12 guys to now we use six. And the most people I will put on a job is two.
Very cool. So two man install teams.
Correct.
Okay. And like how many lights, like how many lights are they doing per day or what are their expectations?
So, you know, it can be different. And you know, this is. So Ryan and I were joking at the beginning of the podcast. I think I may be one of the worst students in, in the entire, in the entire Lighting for profits group or landscape lighting secrets. and I only say that because I really, I really have fun with lighting. It's, it's it's something I really enjoy. but I'm not tracking those numerics the way that I should. But we do a lot of lights. so I guess today, I mean we're probably getting in 30 to 50 lights regular mounted. I mean we, we did one we're doing right now and yesterday, or I think he hit 50 and we had to do 11 of them were louvered step lights, that he actually had to attach to the house.
So he got, he got like two. A two man crew, got 50 lights done in one day.
Correct.
Transformer mounted, lights turned on.
Do you want to hear the craziest part? Those guys work, those guys work in the family business with me and they're essentially partners in, in landscape lighting at Charleston. So they're working a full day and then we will, and then we actually do all of these jobs in the afternoons and weekends.
Oh really? So they're starting off in the morning with the landscape company, get off there and then go do lighting.
Yeah. So, you know, as, everybody in this business knows, retention of employees is a difficult thing in our industry and you know, how much can you pay them? So when I find these rock star guys in the landscape you know, portion of the company. And, you know, you got to think we're fighting with the country club of Charleston. We're fighting with, you know, whatever it may be there. There's entities in Charleston, you know, that will pay people. There's private estates, you know, that want some of these guys. you know, so what I found was, okay, why reinvent the wheel? Why, you know, meet all of these new people? Not that I'm opposed to it, but I have these guys that, you know, we really have an opportunity to all grow and grow this business together. So they are essentially, you know, partners in this business with me. No, they don't own, you know, any stake in the business. but I try to compensate them, as if they did.
You jokingly said you might be the worst client of landscape lighting secrets
Well, you jokingly said you might be one of the, or the worst client of landscape lighting secrets. I. I think actually you just inspired an idea. Every year at Secret Summit, which is coming up September 25th, we come out with some new things, like, hey, new feature. We're going to try this for 12 months. We're going to try this, see what works, right? Well, I think maybe we should do, like, our best clients and our worst clients. So there'll be a little competition to see, like, okay, who, who actually is. Is the worst. even though you, you say, okay, maybe I'm the worst, what, what are some things that you've. You've taken away some of the things that you've learned, maybe about lighting, maybe about the sales process, about profitability, those types of things, man.
For anybody listening, and, and, and I'm. I'm somewhat joking. So a big part of what I do is, you know, I actually started a podcast, applying a lot of the things in the lighting business first. But it is kind of a side. It's not a side thought, but it's a. It's my. It's my little passion project. It's my baby on the side. So I started implementing a lot of the things I was learning in landscape lighting secrets with, So, so I started with landscape lighting at Charleston, and then we actually switched over and I started implementing it more in the family business. So really taking 35 years of data and content, etcetera, and then trying to be able to streamline that to a way that you can even read it. I mean, we were on QuickBooks Desktop. That was not even. You couldn't. Can't buy it. They wanted to kick you off. and, you know, now we're running multiple VA's. you know, we're trying to track things. We're working on marketing a lot. you know, and the power of social media is crazy. I was, you know, just listening to, I believe it's Coggins, his podcast that y' all just had, and him talking about social media. And he's right. I, I heard his name and I, I know that the context is not clear, but he was talking about, you know, the fact that, you know, he's on, you know, on Instagram so much that sometimes clients say they, they know his name. And and he's exactly right. I actually, you know, I wasn't even thinking about. It was in my subconscious. But, you know, he was right. You know, he's right there because I was thinking recently, who's this, who's this Nightlight franchise? Who, who's behind all this? Because I was seeing a little bit of it, and then, you know, lately, to kind of tie it into what we're doing. you know, and I even told the lady, so we're working for someone on Southern Charm. it's a Bravo TV show I don't care too much about. I don't necessarily watch it. That being said, you know, she looked at our Instagram and said, oh, these are rookie numbers. And I was like, hey, I, I don't really care about, you know, having this massive following. You know, if you can get me a hundred moms on, on this, you know, on this, you know, this, really high end neighborhood. Perfect. And she shared something and we had, I believe it was like close to 300 something thousand impressions. Where we got a few design jobs coming up in Oregon. We have a couple coming up in Florida and then I have one in New York. And that was all from one job. And so to say that social media doesn't matter, is a bit naive. it's hard, I think, is what it really comes down to. but she really, she really showed me just how important it was.
It is hard. It takes a ton of discipline, a ton of consistency. But I like that idea of tapping into other people's networks. You know, it's a huge multiplier. I mean, I talk about all the time referral partners and getting into their networks, but tapping into someone else's who already is an influencer, someone who already has that, that following. I mean, it's hard to. How many followers does she have? It's going to take you a long time to get there. You can just tap into hers with one post, you know, that's really cool.
Exactly. Yeah, so. So, yeah, man, it's been, it's been really fun. You know, I took, I took some notes and I don't mean to make this too sterile, but I think there's some points that will be, you know, fun to, fun to bring into. you know, you brought it up in your, in your initial kind of 10 minute speech, but, you know, a funny little saying that, you know, I heard, you know, profit for vanity. profit, for vanity. Revenue for saying. Or sorry. Profit for, revenue for vanity. For vanity. Exactly. so, yeah, I think that's just something that could be so overlooked. And, you know, I know that I kind of went down this rabbit hole there for a little while where I was just kind of chasing that top end number. And then, you know, when we did find out we were having a kid, I, you know, did a ton of this scaling back. So, you know, we, we literally, you know, brought down our, our labor by 100%. whenever I came in, we brought up our cost by 100%. And then, you know, design just.
You mean like your price 100%?
Yes. So you double your price ticket item. Yeah.
Okay.
and then, you know, in this. And then, and then I think the biggest point, I think it's so funny you're talking about West Palm beach is, you know, just getting confidence to believe that you can really design and do, you know, these really awesome projects. and yeah, I'm kind of putting myself out there doing that with these live, live designs and, you know, when they get really big, we obviously have conversations. but that being said, you know, it's so cliche, but, you know, confidence in what you do, knowing you're the authority when you get to the meeting, it just goes so far. And it went to show on, you know, what our close rate was and, you know, what we were able to charge per fixture. And, and a lot of that just comes down to, you know, really trying to be, you know, passionate about what you do and not just trying to be like, being passionate about what you do. I know a lot of, A lot of the program is essentially to, you know, kind of scale more. I don't want to say work less, but create efficiencies. Man, I love work. And I'm sure I'm going to get to a point where I am going to need to kind of pivot these things. And, and we are, we are with the family business, like I said, but at this given point in time, I'm, I'm loving, Just going after it.
You doubled your prices, you've cut some of your expenses
Very cool. So talk a little bit about your numbers. I mean, what. What has happened? Like, you're talking about you doubled your prices, you've cut some of your expenses. we have different levels. Like, there's different levels in business where you really want to focus on revenue. Because, again, the lifetime value of a client, if they pay you, you know, $50,000 today, it's not going to end there. They're going to give you stuff down the road. and then there's times where you're reinvesting a lot of the profits back into growth. If someone's doing heavy advertising, other people do referrals and stuff like that. But can you share? I mean, you don't have to share actual, dollar amounts, but percentages.
So, yeah. So literally we took. You know, I had a lot of guys that. I don't want to say it was a charity, but, you know, they were, you know, coming in for that afternoon weekend work, and, you know, they really weren't putting the time in that some of the other guys were, So I actually gave the guys that stuck around, you know, a raise, probably higher than a pretty. Pretty substantial raise. And then I got rid of a lot of what I consider the noise. And a lot of that noise was, you know, you go back and something's not done properly, and we're having to do that multiple times. So we. We legitimately, over one fiscal year, brought down our. Our labor rate by 100%. And then. And then we did that price increase. And to be blunt, you know, I had signed up for. For your program, and, you know, when I paid for it, I was like, I got to pay for this. And, thank God for this first client who just didn't flinch. so they didn't flinch, and I was just like, okay, you know, this is the way we do really. You know, I know we stand by our service. I know we provide the value. And, you know, in order for us to be able to grow the way that I know we need to, and to be able to provide for the guys, families and my family, like, there's just no option. Like, we have to. And so when we started to look at the burn rate in the family business, then it started to make me more aware of what the burn rate for the lighting business was. And, and to be fair, no, I don't have that answer. I should, But when I did that, it made me much more comfortable to understand that, like, hey, it's okay to charge what you're Worth. And you know, I had an interesting experience recently. So this guy, you know, multi, multi, multi, you know, billion dollar home, very, very expensive office downtown in a church. and you know, he asked me to, you know, so we're kind of going back and forth. We weren't vibing that much. I think he's a good guy. And so the first, first meeting was a little odd. Then I got to his office and I kind of looked around and you know, he had wires hanging there is just a mess in the office. He didn't care about his environment. And I think that's one of the most important things we can do is realize, you know, the consumers that we're working with and the consumers that we're looking for as people in this industry. You know, you don't want to go, you know, you want to go after that person who's really into what they have and they're good consumers and they, they appreciate and they value nice things. And that's not to say to overcharge anyone. You know, we don't have a different price for any neighborhood. It's, it's nothing like that. It's just, you know, we try to provide a certain level of service that I simply can't pay for if we don't, you know, hit certain numbers, sell at a certain price and you know, state, you know, and yeah, so hit certain numbers, sell a certain price and then, you know, do the quality of job that we need to.
Well, it's. I, I can, I can sense it, I can feel it. Because if you're not, if you're, if you're answering the phone or you, you hear someone's, a, client's name, you're like, how great them again then you didn't charge enough. Like, I, I can sense in your, your like emotion, you're feeling, your energy that you like, you actually love what you're doing. Like, you're not working. Like, this is awesome. And so the problem is a lot of people are like, they don't like what they're doing. It's usually because they're not making enough money. Whereas, like, if the phone rings and it's, you know, Mrs. Smith, it's like, oh, hey, we charged enough. Just so you know, we charged enough that we're going to be able to come back and over deliver one more time. We're going to bend over backwards, going to roll out the red carpet, the white glove. You are going to get treated like a rock star because you invested the right amount as Opposed to someone who's, like, cheap and difficult. You're like, oh, my gosh, dude, if I hear that name one more time, you know, it's like, well, if you were to charge them 10 times the amount, you'd been like, oh, cool, what can we do for you today? Like, it just doesn't matter. You're actually excited to serve them because they. They committed to you now you committed them. It's a relationship, and you want to over deliver on that relationship 100%.
100%. And, and again, you know, when. When you work for that customer who's just so excited to have, you know, what I would call, you know, the Ferrari class of, you know, lighting job. You know, you pull up to that and you're just so excited. Like, it's just, you know, it's just such a good feeling. You know, it's a nice home, it's a nice landscape, and. And you end up just getting to do such a good job.
Paul Mulkey: Our goal is to be there within 24 to 48 hours
And, you know, it brings me to service, you know, sometimes it's so funny. I'll have these, you know, people that spend really good money with us. And, you know, I got a text message today. so. And I'll. I'll give clients my personal cell phone. And, you know, I had a homeowner ask me, you know, she said she was having an issue. Well, you know, we have a first year. Completely complimentary. I kind of joke around. As long as you don't hit it with a golf club or run it over. We'll fix anything that ever. Anything that happens within that first year. and then we go over to our, you know, our maintenance plan, which I think we should discuss in a little bit. and it was so funny when she said, you know, I've been trying to fix this. It's like, well, literally everything you pay for is for us to be there, you know, and I tell people, and I know that, you know, back to scheduling thing, it's dangerous, but I like the pressure, and I think it's important to operate this way is, you know, we're. Our goal is to be there within 24 to 48 hours of any call and hopefully less.
Absolutely. Yeah. Hey, do you want to play Quick Hit Controversials?
Let's do it.
This is our lightning round we introduced just a few weeks ago. So it's been kind of fun. I think we should do it. So this is Quick Hit Controversials Lightning round with Paul Mulkey.
This could divide the lighting industry for time and all eternity
All right. Are you sure you're ready for this pressure? You said you Wanted some pressure.
I do.
This is gonna. This could divide the lighting industry for time and all eternity. All right, what's more important? What's more important? Does beautiful design or perfect installation?
You can't have a perfect installation without a beautiful design. You can't be a beautiful design without a perfect installation.
No, you gotta pick. You have to pick one.
I have to pick. then it has to be perfect insulation.
All right. All the designers out there hate you. Okay. we already know the answer to this one, I guess. Nighttime demos, secret sauce or waste of time?
Secret sauce.
would you rather have 10 jobs at 5k or 5 jobs at 10k?
5 jobs at 10k all day.
5 jobs at 10k.
Add on lighting versus standalone lighting company is controversial question
the lighting industry in three words. Go.
Beautiful, fun, and challenging.
Challenging. It's challenging. Coming up with three words for the lighting industry.
Well, challenging, you know, you think of all the hard, hard to reach little, little peaks and valleys of, you know, lighting areas. So, you know, I love trying to conquer those, those little decisions design wise.
Add on lighting versus standalone lighting company. Who's got the better future?
I may not understand the question, properly. So what's an add on, landscaper.
That does lighting or landscape lighting? Charleston.
So, to be fair, I think standalone lighting is better for the lighting industry in particular. And we operate landscape lighting and Charleston as if it is. It's a standalone entity.
Yeah. But it is nice that you have the relationships and the client, list that you can, you know, those people already like you, trust you, of course, to lean on them. That's the advantage of bolting it on. Yeah, but I do like, I do like you guys branded it as it.
We, I mean, we can, I mean, to give that context, we can export 35 years. I mean, obviously they're not all there, but of, you know, clients straight into our, our lighting portfolio. So in terms of referral partners, you know, it's, it's invaluable.
Yeah, I like it. A lot of people want to know they're. They're, they're coming with an existing business. Do I just bolt it on? Do I rebrand? And I think you guys did it the right way. All right, you can only keep one. Quality fixtures or top tier design skills.
Top tier design skills.
Wow. You hate quality fixtures. Okay, good to know. It's, it's quick hit controversials. upselling lighting during a. Yeah, we'll just keep that beat going. okay. Upselling lighting during a landscaping job. Genius move. Or clutters up the landscape cell.
Genius move.
You guys do it while you're selling the landscape job and say, hey, also, as part of this design, we're throwing in 100 lights.
We don't add details. They need lights in their landscape. Love it.
cell scripts, cheat code, or crutch.
Hate me for this crutch.
Oh, I like it. So controversial. I need to ask you about that one after. It's too controversial. most overrated lighting feature. Okay. Most overrated lighting feature. Color changing, app control or dimming.
Oh, I could hit on all three.
most overrated.
Color changing.
Who gets paid more? The artist or the closer? The designer or the.
Answer the answers on the question. The closer.
DIY customers. Help them or ghost them.
Help.
Oh, Such a good guy.
Yeah. Hey. They may have a friend.
Hey. And they might be richer next year.
Landscape lighting is a luxury or a necessity. Depending on. Residential landscape lighting can be
Landscape lighting is a luxury or a necessity.
Necessity. It's a luxury.
Okay.
Depending on. No, it's actually. I'm sorry, I. I retract necessity. Residential landscape lighting can be.
This is apostasy. yeah. I mean, the thing is, it if. No, if someone's never had it, they think it's luxury. Once they've had it, it's always a necessity. They'll get it before they get blinds installed at their next house.
And. And that. That's kind of the point I was making about some of my friends who are coming of financial age. It's. It's fun to see them start to really value their environment.
Oh, this is a good one. This is. I hope. I hope your family's listening. Family business dynamics. Unfair advantage or constant challenge?
Constant challenge.
Whoa. Shots fired. Look out. This is going to be an awkward meeting tomorrow morning. would you rather train someone from scratch or steal someone with experience?
Train. Turn someone from scratch.
Okay. Slow growth with control or fast growth with chaos?
Slow growth.
You hate celebrities. You only get one. 105 star reviews or one celebrity client
All right, last one. You only get one. 105 star reviews or one celebrity client.
105 star reviews.
You hate celebrities. All right, good to know. That was. What do we call it? Quick hit. Controversials who hate celebrities.
Oh, yeah. All, Right.
That was good. I learned some things about Paul that I didn't know, so that was good. Some. Some of the questions I'm like, oh, I know he's going to say. And then you said the opposite, so it's good to know.
Billy Coggins: Sell me on integrated fixtures
So. So, you asked. You asked, Billy Coggins, drop in verse. Integrated. Yeah. Can you. Can you please, sell me on it? Sell me on integrated fixtures.
Wait, so.
Okay, you have to sell me.
Which one do you like better, drop in or integrated
Okay, first, I'm Gonna ask you drop, in or integrated?
I'm gonna, I asked the question first. It's only fair for you to answer the question.
Well, I just want to know what you, what you think. Which one do you like better?
I want to hear your unsolicited, opinion.
All right, so here's my opinion. I was going to be a quick hit, controversial. It was going to be a moment, it was going to be a clip we were going to use for time on Eternity. So here's my, here's my thing. I actually want to do what the competition is not doing. Right. So when I got, when I started using, I mean at first I was just using the cheap stuff because that's all I could afford and I couldn't, I didn't know how to sell and all this stuff. So I'm just using, dropping like everyone else. And then everyone was like, well, it's just, it became a commodity, right? And so I actually am for what your competition's not using. And in my case it was integrated. now there's some really cool things about integrated. Like if you want like a small niche fixture, well that's, you're not going to get a drop in that's that small, you know. So, I'm definitely pro integrated. Those little cool niche lights and stuff like that. And then it really just depends on again, like, like if people are selling at like 300 bucks a light and they're doing drop in, well then I want to be $500 a light and be integrated because it's, it's a blue ocean strategy. I'm not sitting here fighting in this red ocean with everyone else. So I like integrated. I like drop in. It really depends on what you're doing, who you're selling it to. If someone is not going to pay for integrated because like while I'm moving in like three to five years, well then I've got a drop in option for you as well, you know. So, yeah, I don't, I don't think there's a right or wrong. I think the answer is if as, as I've gotten better at a coach, at being a coach, the number one answer I like to, to respond with is it depends.
I think that's a great answer. and to answer your question, I'm a drop in guy. I'm very, so I got to start working with Tom Garber and the team. Tom G G Money, gangster, whatever you want to call him.
The OG. com.
Exactly. Yes. Yep, exactly. But, no, Tom has been, Tom's been great to work with his entire team. and that's not why I say drop in. We did drop ins before that. and I think it's important to note that, you know, there's, there's so many different situations where, you know, I may try to be in this drop in army. that being said, you know, like his, his Scout Pro is just like, it's, it's awesome. so I really enjoy working with that product and you know, I don't have any, you know, real benefit saying this but you know, I did my house recently and we're actually like an upgrade to my house and I was actually able to put a Scout Pro on a flower. So small, little bushy flower and I had a palm tree above it and it's in a pot and the scalp literally floats on the flower, kind of illuminates the flower from the sides and hits the palm tree.
That's cool.
Now you couldn't do that in anybody else's house, but it's really great.
Well, and I will say this for, for new people. I'm I'm like, you almost just need to start with drop in because you don't know enough about what you don't know. And so if you go out and do an install and all of a sudden like it's too bright, well, you can just go drop in a different lamp and put in 60 degree. Or if you had a seven watt, just go put a four. Like so it's, it's again, it just depends on where you're at, like what your challenges are. and if you're, if you're, if you don't have competition because you've marketed to through referral partners, for example, like they don't, you don't have competition. When you have referral partners, it's just like they're, they're going to go with you. If they like you, they trust your design skills and all that, then you can do whatever you want. Right. So, again, I, I don't want to, I wouldn't commit to one or the other unless I knew more information about the market and the individual, what their goals were and what they're dealing with. So you also have inventory to think about, you know, like if you're going to have integrated, like what are you going to keep on your truck? Because you certainly don't want to go back for maintenance and not have that fixture or that lamp on hand to be able to just take care of It. So a lot of moving pieces, a lot of factors to consider in that question.
Yeah. And we are, to be fair, we're having to move to more integrated. But I am, I'm part of the drop in army, something that's really cool. I mean, man. So I mean again, working, working with, working with, with Tom over at Emory Allen and those guys, you know, looking at the quality of life they're producing. And then also you have to imagine if we are doing these live demos, it's really important and, and for me, part of it. It's not just a live demo or a live, you know, live design. But you know, we're, we're tweaking that design. I'll be honest, I'm, I'm a little surprised when I hear these wellestablished, you know, guys in, in different companies saying that, you know, they may not do, you know, evening, you know, adjustments because you know, I mean a quarter of an inch, you know, can make the difference to that sharp shadow versus not having it. And the, the value on that, the value of being with those homeowners owners whenever that finished product is there. I just, I really can't, can't put a price on it. I just think it's so important. and, and what's really cool and I, and I think, you know, at some point you'd ask, is it scalable? Yes, it is. So, you know, I'm now having some of my top installers do some of our smaller jobs and and they're able to, you know, they do it and you know, I kind of put it on them to figure out, you know, what beam spread will obviously check over it before it goes through. you know, but they're learning a lot and I think drop ins are powerful for that reason. and I also like to be able to service it. But you know, I think we can get pretty far down the rabbit hole, you know, for what reasons we like them. also. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of reasons. But, but I really do want to shout out to Tom G. at Emory Allen. Those guys have taken such good care of me. And this is, this is not, it's not a paid for advertisement. I just have a really good relationship with them and I think they have a really awesome product.
I thought like right when you said that this wad of cash was just gonna like flow from the ceiling or something, like, your payment has arrived. I, I love, I love Tom. I love his family, I love his business. I Love that there's, there's people like him that just, they care so much. Like, because I don't care too much about like 92 cri. Like I'm okay with 89, you know what I mean? But like people care so much about that and it really does impact the final result of what we're doing here. So it's, it's amazing that, that people are constantly trying to get better and evolving. And, and tom g@amorylen. com he is a drop in guy that, in that created a, a an integrated fixture.
So hey, I don't know the Rangers, the range, so the Scout and the Ranger, I mean they both have their own, you know, use case. But but yeah, they're both awesome products. But I do think in my opinion it really comes down to that quality of light and then flexibility. I think that's a really important part.
So what are some of your cheat codes for growing your lighting business
So I want to ask you about referral partners. What, what is that? Has that been like a major growth, segment for you? Like what, what are some of the, some of your cheat codes for growing your lighting business?
Absolutely. So there is a pool company in town, and they have been integral. we're doing probably right now seven jobs for them. like this month right now as we speak. And then we'll be do. And then one of those jobs, the eighth job is is actually my dad's house. So that's a, that's a really fun project. He's a super creative guy. So it's, it's been a really hilarious lighting project.
Just charging him extra.
he, he's, he's getting a pretty good deal.
I mean you always got to charge family at least 20, 30% more. They always just more difficult, you know, so.
Oh, he is, he would tell me to start with the design and then he'd stop me and tell me we're going to do it a different way. So you know it's been, but it's been so much fun and you know there's, there's a lot of cool things that we're implementing there that I, that are really fun. you know, you can take that Scout Pro and you know, take these little old candle holders or you know, whatever it may be, find these antiques and you can literally, you know, build these, you know, crazy little lightscapes, at night that just create this awesome ambiance, with that product that you know, you could do it with other products. But that, that fixture has just been a, a home run to be Able to do things like that.
When you reach out to get a new referral partner, what is your pitch
Well, what'd you do? What, like when you reach out to try to get a new referral partner, what is your, what is your pitch? What, what are you telling them?
So, you know, reaching out's been, been hard, frankly. you know, and this is where I go back to. Am I the worst student? Am I a good student?
I mean, we do have the script sitting there waiting for you to just read them. But anyway, go ahead.
No, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's difficult. But the ones that we have gotten and the ones that have worked are literally the difference of, you know, where we were two years ago or we're not and where we are today. you know, without that, you know, we have the, the one major pool company, you know, a couple fence contractors. I got an artificial turf guy. You know, each of those guys, you know, bring stuff to the table. The reason I really like the pool company is it brings me back to, you know, these high end, pre qualified leads. If you're spending, you know, anywhere from 90 to 350 on a pool, then we're, we're talking business and we can work together.
Yeah, I love it too. they're pre qualified. They also get to that point where, you know, when, when are most people actually going to use their pool? I mean, yeah, on a Saturday, they might use it during the day, but most of these people, even if they're making millions, they still work. Like they, they're like us, they like to work. It's not like they're like, oh man, I have to go to work. They're addicted to it. So they don't actually get to enjoy this until they get home after work. And yeah, right now it might not matter because it gets dark so late, but like, another few weeks, they're going to miss out on enjoying these properties, these backyards where they spent half a million million dollars on. When you add up the pool and the landscape and the garden, all this stuff, so it just makes sense for them and it actually ties in everything. Like it actually adds more value to the pool company because you take a picture and you send that to them, they're gonna show. They're gonna sell their next pool with the nighttime lights on. They're not gonna sell it with the day shot, they're gonna sell with the night shot.
So I would say that was actually an interesting part of the relationship with the pool company was I think, you know, they just felt like I was only giving them, you know, or they were only benefiting me. And then they started to do some of their photo shoots. And, you know, they're. They're paying good money for this and, and they're doing them at night with the lights on. and so it's one of those things, you know.
The referral partner situation is just really, really amped things up
And then what's been really important, and I've heard you mention this, is now finally being able to bring them over some jobs. That's been the secret sauce with any of my referral partners. You bring somebody jobs, you know, somewhat consistently especially high ticket items like that. And, that's where it seems for me personally, the referral partner situation is just really, really amped things up.
It means so much. Even if you just gave them like a few opportunities, you can't control if they close the cell or not. But if you just say, hey, I got this client. They're looking for a pool. I want to introduce you guys. They're like, wow, okay, Paul's a team player. Like this, that solidifies the relationship.
You know, we're aggressive. I mean, I will take another company's contract and this may sound bad and give it to my guy and be like, look, here's what you got to beat, is this. Apples, apples. And you know, I need you in there. And it's not for bad reason. You know, I know that I can get our, you know, whoever my client is, a better product if they work with a company that I personally think is the best. And I know that I have a little bit of leverage with them to make sure that, you know, they're taking certain considerations into play, whether it be lighting or just, you know, ease of use.
You mentioned, uh, maintenance plans earlier when you guys. It sounds like you include a full year
You know, overall, you mentioned, maintenance plans earlier when you guys. It sounds like you include a full year. Is that to everybody or is that negotiating or.
Everybody gets a. Everybody gets a full year unquestioned. I, don't do the subscription model that a lot of people do. I'm definitely not opposed to it from a, you know, long term business standpoint. That being said, you know, we, we bill by the hour, we charge by the hour, and, and we do really well by it, I think, sir. So, yeah, we start that at 12 months, being, you know, in the salty environment that we are. Some are quarterly, summer biannually, and summer annually. a lot of that goes, you know, depending on the environment, some of that goes more down to client preference. but what I'll say is, you know, a lot of these, you know, higher ticket jobs, you know, some of these people. And, and to be crystal clear, you know, at the core of this is to be of service to our clients and to make sure that we can offer them the best product possible. If I tell somebody to go look at 10 addresses in the same neighborhood, and, you know, there's bushes growing over our lights, and we have pathways that are sideways, and, you know, I know Coggins likes that. and then we have, you know, wire showing. You know, it's not a good look. So, you know, it doesn't just benefit them, but it benefits us to be able to, you know, have a perfect project. A lot of our projects are, you know, in very close proximity. there's a lot of golf course communities here. And if, you know, we. I can give somebody, you know, addresses and they walk through, you know, that's a really easy way to decide that that's somebody that can qualify for a living, for a live design.
Well, not only that, but you got to remember our clients, that they, they're using the space, they're having people over, they're entertaining. And if half the lights are out or even just a handful and it just looks like, okay, it's not. It's not amazing. Right? And so you talked about that reveal night. Like, we. We love that. We, like, we. We want to see it too.
Right?
And so when they have their friends over, like, oh, my gosh, who did your lighting? And it's kind of crazy because when you do the lighting, right, they're actually not asking that question. They're like, oh, who did your landscaping?
Yep, exactly. Yeah. So, you know, going back to West Palm beach, you know, so we go. I like to go to the Four Seasons. It's a guilty pleasure. And I'm not saying that for to be like, pompous or, like, sound cool. man, I come away going to those properties with more design insight than I think I could. You know, I mean, I'm sure going to some of these programs will be better. but, you know, the Palm Beach Four Seasons, for example, you know, their lighting is just absolutely insane. and, you know, I think putting yourself in those spaces, those higher end spaces, and, you know, really understanding what's truly possible, is just such an important thing to do. And, and they show a lot of range in their design.
Interesting. Well, I mean, you know, that's for a lot. A lot of people will say, like, don't sell with your wallet and stuff like that. And, you know, I say, like, don't limit your clients because of your Limited beliefs. Just because you're like, oh, I wouldn't spend that kind of money. I wouldn't put 10 lights on a tree. I'll just do two or whatever it is. but really, like, when you kind of peek into the lifestyle that these people are living, it opens up your m. Mind to realize, like, they truly don't care. Just because they're asking you for a deal doesn't mean they need it. They might just be like, can you come down 10 grand? No. Okay, well, can you start?
We, you know, one thing my dad always taught me was, you know, a good consumer is always going to watch their cost. so, you know, just because like you said, somebody asked for it. But I also want to clarify, you know, I obviously have, you know, a higher end residential client list. That being said, you know, these people didn't get to where they are by making poor financial decisions.
Right.
so I think it's, you know, it's important to know that, you know, yeah, you have to have that value. and it's not like anybody's getting taken advantage of. It's just, you know, they, like you said, it opens your eyes to not, you know, the way that I've always heard it is shop out of your own wallet. and I think that's such an important thing to do. It's, you know, design it, you know, full, full capacity and don't shop out of your own wallet. When thinking about that design, and to this day, after you know, doing that process of the, of a live design for so long, or a demo, whatever you want to call it, you know, I still have to remind myself there may be that, you know, one light that I'm thinking I might not put in because it's kind of hard, but I think it's going to make a big difference. That light has to go in so important.
It just is all about value. Um, and, you know, that's a saying
Nice. I do like the new term. I like the, I like live design because it's not a demo. I, I do demos with 12 lights and I don't bury the wires. Like, you're way better than me. You're doing a live design.
Yeah, you know, Yeah, I like the process.
Yeah, it's good. Well, you know, and people confused, they're like, you know, like, you said something. Actually, it was really good. Like, you know, our clients, they didn't make it to this by making poor financial decisions, but to them, the definition poor financial decision is different. Like, you could give someone an $80,000, number for a lighting design and installation and someone could come in and I guarantee, promise the exact same number of fixtures for 40,000 bucks. Well, the poor financial decision in our client's mind is to do the 40,000 because it's not going to be done right. They're not going to be able to get a hold of them. There's going to be crappy connections, they're going to be crappy fixtures, and then they have to pay you to come out and take their system out and do the 80,000 $1. So now it costs them 120 instead of just 80. So poor financial decisions isn't always. Well, they're not going to just not pay the most like they will. It just is all about value. There's this price and value and as soon as the value is more than the price, it doesn't matter what the price is. You could charge fifteen hundred dollars a light and still sell landscape lighting. As long as the value is higher than that, they're always going to pull the trigger. That's a smart financial decision for them. The value just has to be there. That's why they buy nice houses that are $5 million. That's why they buy cars that are $500,000 because the value is greater than the 500,000. They know they can go buy a Hyundai for $30,000. They are aware they could save money by buying a cheaper car, but that's not what they're after. They're off. They're after value.
Yeah, the guy brought up with the bestie office, he specifically asked me if I could build him a Toyota. and I think Toyotas are incredible vehicles, by the way, just to put that out there. but when he said that and I, you know, looking at the space he's sitting in, it did make me realize that, you know, he just, we weren't exactly aligned on our values and exactly, you know, what we're looking for out of the project and, you know, lifespan of, you know, how long he was going to last. So, you know, I know it's a little odd that I'm focusing on him, but I think that just being aware of who your client is and you may be able to communicate on this a little better is just such an important thing. you got, you got to know who your client is and you got to know, you know, some of the best deals you make or some of the deals you don't. and, you know, that's a saying that has been invaluable to me personally.
Well said. I mean, you try to sell a Ferrari to the guy who wants a Toyota, it's just not going to work. And on the other side, if you try to sell it, Toyota, to the guy who wants a Ferrari, you, it's just not gonna work. Nope, that's not your client. So.
What are you most excited about in the next 6 to 12 months for your lighting business
All right, man. Well, what's. What are you most excited about in the next 6 to 12 months for your lighting business?
6 to 12 months?
Are you not excited?
So, I'm very, I'm very excited. Just want to think about it a little bit, actually. You know, one big thing I'd like to do, and I want to lean on, on the, you know, the group for this is I want to go to either AOLP or illy. I am personally leaning towards ily. Don't hope, I hope I'm not making or hurting anybody's feelings. but, yeah, I, I.
Controversial AOLP or ily?
Yeah, I'd love to do both. but, yeah, pick one. I would love to do both. but that's something I want to do. I feel like I've, I've worked. I mean, you know, we're at almost a decade and, you know, building lighting systems and then, you know, going from building lighting systems, actually, you know, I feel like truly designing lighting systems and I feel like we're, you know, at that point where it just makes sense to where we need to, you know, really take that design and, and that design understanding to another level.
Well, I can tell you this, and this isn't just because my face made it on one of their pop up banners, for trade shows, but I would go to Italy. they have a, they have a class this fall. I believe Greg Matthews is a mentor again, this fall. And I went there a few years ago, just as an attendee and it was awesome. And I don't even have a lighting business anymore, but I immediately was like, okay, I should have gone to this years ago. You know, it's pretty intense. It's five days. it's, you know, a few thousand bucks. It's not, it's nothing crazy, but some people are like, you know, they don't like investing in anything. but it's more the investment of time, you know, because you'll be gone basically a whole week. And, you will not regret it, you know, and if you don't go, you might not regret not going because you don't know you're missing out on. But, you definitely will not regret the things that you learn, the inspiration that you get, the way you speak your language will change. Like, it's highly, highly recommended. It's coming up this fall. I would for sure do it.
Yeah, man.
Paul Love: I appreciate you coming on to talk about landscape lighting
And I want to piggyback off that a little bit and just, you know, tell you how grateful I am for the, you know, space that you've created, you know, within the lighting industry. I think, I would hope that, you know, most people are in industry recognize, you know, what you're bringing to the table, you know, for us to be able to communicate, you know, in a semi private, you know, chat in an area and, to be able to get in these, you know, different groups and, like, communicate and, you know, really network. you know, having someone do that is just awesome. And I just. I just want to personally thank you.
Thanks, man. I appreciate you saying that. I. I don't know how to take compliments, but thank, you. And, I will say this. I mean, we're just getting started. We've. We've done a lot of cool stuff and changed a lot of people's lives already. But, we're going to unveil a few things, next month at Secret Summit, which will be cool, and then, even more at the beginning of the year. So lots of, Lots of cool stuff coming down the pipeline. I'm excited.
Secret Summit and, I think Palm Beach, West Palm. You know, I. I guess Kenny Kaufman, Shout out, he's. He's crushing it. He's actually in Charleston, too. Really? good guy.
I was in Charleston and West Palm and a couple.
Yeah, he's got it going on. I really, really enjoyed listening, to some of the stuff he had, in your program. that being said, you know, I can't wait to talk to him about West Palm because that market for lighting. So if you take Charleston, we're a historic place. But then we have some of these golf course communities, some of which, you know, are very, you know, nestled into, you know, nature. so, you know, some of these. Some of these communities, we cannot, you know, we need to keep very minimal light. Downtown Charleston, you need to keep minimal light. It needs to seem very old world. And then we get to other communities where, you know, it's just blow it out off the top. And then you take places like West Palm and it's, you know, triple that with color. So, you know, I'm. I'm really excited. That's why I really do love going to that area. I think there's a lot to. Lot to be said about studying there.
Cool. Yeah, I know. We had some areas in Dallas where I was like, why? Why is this one area where all the money is like a dark sky community? Like, are you kidding me? These people, they don't care. They would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, but they can't. Like, they're a lot like, oh, I would, but I can't. Whereas, like these other areas, they're just like a small lot. Like, it's, it's very. Like they have money, but we can only fit 30 lights on this lot. It's not a huge lot, you know, so, limitations. well, this was awesome, man. I appreciate you coming on. it's, this has been really fun. If people want to get, a hold of you, they want to, connect with you, follow your work, what's the best way to stay in touch?
So Instagram, I would say, was our number one. So Landscape lighting chs. That is landscape lighting chs. And then also follow our landscapes we build. They're really awesome. and that is at the Tree Clinic. That's the Tree Clinic. is that exactly how it sounds? and you can kind of follow some of the stuff we do.
Very cool. Well, this was fun, man. We'll definitely have to, make it happen again. I think we, probably hopefully offended some people with the quick hit controversials, divided the lighting industry and made some haters. So thanks for coming on, Paul.
One at a time. Thanks, brother. Appreciate you.
No, I really do. It's, it's fun getting to know you and, having you share your story and stuff like that. So I know we, we helped. My goal is just to help one person, so I know we helped someone today.
Love it, man. Thank you so much.
Don't forget Secret Summit, West Palm beach, next month
All right, guys, keep moving forward. Don't forget Secret Summit. If you're in Landscape Lighting Secrets, this is a must attend event. We will kick you out of the program. All right? Probably not, but just come there. All right. Secret Summit, West Palm beach, next month. Let's go.