Lighting for Profits - Episode 219

Step into the world of Patrick Harders - a nationally recognized outdoor lighting designer, educator, and co-founder of Sterling Lighting. With over 25 years of experience and more than 10,000 lighting systems designed, Patrick has mastered the balance between art and engineering. In this episode, discover his philosophy of “staying in the dirt,” his passion for innovation, and how his award-winning approach continues to redefine what’s possible in outdoor illumination.

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Ryan Lee hosts Lighting for Profits today celebrating Veterans Day

Welcome to Lighting for Profits.

All light, All light, All light. Powered by EmeryAllen.

Here is your host, Ryan Lee.

All ah light. All light, all light. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the number one landscape lighting show in Washington dc. That's right, coming from the nation's capital. By the way, happy Veterans Day. Thank you to everyone who has served, who is serving, you know, this country. We don't always all agree, but I will, I will say this. I still believe that we live in the best country in the world and I'm grateful for all those that have served to protect our freedom. So I don't know if you say Happy Veterans Day, but happy Veterans Day. And if you're looking to start or grow a landscape lighting business, you're definitely in the right place. as you know, my name is Ryan Lee. I'm the host of the number one landscape lighting show in Washington D.C. powered by Emory Allen. And if you're looking to start or grow a landscape lighting business, today is the day. we've got Mr. Patrick Harders, joining us and this guy is awesome and he owns several businesses and provides such value to the lighting industry. And so we're going to get into a lot of different things from Sterling Summit. We're going to probably talk some politics, we're going to talk some lighting, we're going to talk some business design, everything. So I'm excited about today's show. by the way, I'm still asking for those five star reviews on Apple. it's weird to think that I only have 88 friends, you know, because that's the number of five star reviews we have on Apple. So if you have not yet and you just need that gentle reminder, go on to Apple, give me that five star review, write something nice maybe about one of our guests that we had on. Maybe you'll write something nice about Patrick today. and we're trying to get to 100 after that. I don't know if I'll stop asking, but I probably will. I might. So, got a great show lined up for you, before we have Patrick on again. Patrick is the co founder of Sterling Lighting. He's also the founder of Dayloom and doing some amazing things. But before we have Patrick on, I want to talk about something real quick.

A few months ago, I hired a sales coach. And, uh, I can't imagine me without a coach

this was about, we're in November already so this was in September, it's almost two months ago. We had secret summit in West Palm Beach, Florida. And you know, after dinner one night, a few people Hung around. And the boys. The boys asked me a question I'd never been asked before. And I was like, actually leaving. I'm like, all right, I'm heading out. Like, hey, quick, quick question for you. And I found it so fascinating, and I wanted to share this question that they proposed. And, and I want to share my answer with you. But before I do, I want to tell you a quick story. a few months ago, I hired a sales coach. And, I can't imagine me not having a coach. you know, up until five or six years ago, I never. I didn't know, why would you have a coach, right? But now that I know, like, how they advance and collapse time, they just make things easier and give you different perspectives. I hired this sales coach because we're going to be growing landscape lighting secrets and selling, you know, community, and information is different than selling landscape lighting. And so I need some. I need a fresh perspective and stuff like that. But, on one of the calls, he goes, hey, what's your biggest constraint? And I was like, well, I got a lot of them. And he's like, yeah, I know you have a lot of constraints, but that's not what I asked you. I said, I asked you what is your biggest constraint? And I thought about that for a few minutes and kind of threw out some things that I thought it was. And, he went on to explain, just based on all the data and information he had already gathered about me. He goes, you know, it's a waste of time for you to try. Try to solve all your constraints at once. he showed me essentially how sales, like the act of sales and bringing in new business. That was my number one biggest constraint right now. And, that once I eliminated all my other distractions, because that's really what they are right now. Yeah, I think they're constraints, but they're kind of distractions because I'm not focused on the one thing, right? He goes, once you get. Eliminate those distractions and just focus on the one constraint which in your position right now is sales, then not only will it allow you to have more money, but more time to solve the other constraints. And this was so awesome.

What will help you make the most money in the shortest period of time

So now fast forward back to the conversation I was having at Secret Summit. The boys stopped me. They say, hey, here's the question. The question they said is, I had to write this down because I couldn't remember how to word it. What will help you make the most amount of money in the shortest period of time? And there's like this spectrum, is it being better at design or is it being better at business? And that was the question, what will help you make the most amount of money in the shortest period of time? And my answer that came like, to my head that it was like my impulsive like knee jerk reaction answer was like if there's a spectrum like 90% business, 10% design. And I want to I guess give this question to you as you're listening to this. Like what, what would your answer be? And I have like my, my knee jerk reaction. And then I have my like, as I think about it, I think the real answer is probably something else. my real answer probably something else. This is probably the real answer is price. More like 75 business, 25 design. And I've got a lot of reasons for that. and maybe we'll ask Patrick. Patrick will be a good one to ask this question too, to see kind of where, where he falls in this. Considering he's won many design awards. he might be the other way. He might be like 90 design, 10 business, I don't know. But it's a fascinating, questioning question. And I believe the reason I'm so heavy on the business side is because, it's your constraint, like if you want to make the most money in the fastest period of time. Like, yes, I love lighting design. Like I was at ILLY as a, as a attendee, I was at ILLY as a mentor. I just got back learning from one of the best lighting designers in the world at the secret summit in Athens. Like lighting design is really important, but I believe that someone who's very, very good at business and not as good as at ah, lighting design can make a lot more money. And so there's lots of, there's lots of reasons. We're actually probably, we could probably do a whole podcast like season on this very, this one question. And I have, you know, different people come in and stuff like that. So yeah, I'm just so passionate about business and I've seen so many successful business people build businesses and I haven't seen a lot of successful designers artists build business. And so that's why I think it's weighted more, more toward business than design.

Tom Garber: Find your number one constraint and focus on it

But the main thing I want to share with you is like find whatever your constraint is. and as much as I love design and all that other stuff, like if your main constraint is you need more leads, then maybe focusing on lighting design right now is not going to be the best for you. Doesn't Mean it's not important doesn't mean it's not going to be a constraint at some point. But right now, if you need more leads, if you need more jobs coming in, if you, if your biggest constraint is, no, I have too many sales and I need the installs done, then your constraint is you need more workers. You need to work on culture and retaining and hiring and recruiting and all those things, right? So, our constraints can change over time. As we grow a business, you reach these different phases and you're like, man, I used to suck at getting leads, now I have too many. and, and it can go back and forth. So figure out what your number one constraint is and focus on that. Spend four hours a day solving your number one constraint and you'll see that you're going to move the needle. You're not going to stay stuck for very long because you have so much energy tied into it, right? And I see too many business owners not focusing on the number one thing that's really holding them back, and they continue to accept the results that their business is giving them and the business is running them instead of them running the business. So I want to encourage you to identify your number one constraint, figure out what it is, and then put maximum energy into it. Like, focus on it until it's solved. Don't worry about everything else. Other things are important, like, but they're not as important as your number one constraint. So focus on that. And I'm telling you, I'm doing it now. And things are, like, moving. And it feels good to be unstuck again. So share that with you. If you have thoughts, reach out. oh, yeah, I forgot. We got to, take Emory Allen. Hey, stop settling for cheap, unreliable lamps that ruin your projects and your reputation. Emory Allen's line of premium LED lamps deliver the performance, longevity and color consistency your clients expect. Trusted by lighting designers and installers around the country and backed by decades of lighting expertise. Don't settle for less. Upgrade your designs and installations today with Emory Allen. Reach out to Tom Garber by emailing tom gary allen.c om to learn more and take advantage of their contractor pricing. Don't go to their website. Don't forget to mention, when you do email, mention lighting for profits. To get that discounted contractor pricing, just email tom gmry allen. com.

Patrick Harder talks about managing lighting business on the show

all right. Did I tell you we got Patrick Harder's coming on the show? Heck yeah. Let's get to it.

What do you guys say?

I'm ready if you're ready.

Let's do it.

Welcome, welcome.

Patrick Harders. How's it going?

It's going. Thanks for joining us today. Yep.

wouldn't have missed it, even though I thought we cut it close a little bit today.

And you really tested fate, traveling so close with the airlines, being pretty much shut down.

Yeah, yeah. When I jumped in my truck and it said, get to the office at 5 o', clock, I was like, had to go a little faster. But we made it, so that was good. I was up at it up at Italy, up in Taos. Another great Ailey event. They're always fun. A lot of. Lot of people just, you know, talking about, like, how much they got out of it. you know, just really getting that craft of lighting design down and understanding it and, you know, really interesting question what you're talking about.

So, yeah, I know I was texting. I didn't know that Paul. Val was there and, I was texting him and, like. And then he goes, oh, I'm at Italy. I'm like, oh, sweet. I'm like, did your. He was the one that kind of promoted that. That, ah, discussion or whatever. And I was like, is, has your perspective changed on your answer? You know, after. After you spend, you know, 48 hours a day at ILY for seven days in a row, it might. Might change a little bit. So. Interesting. Yeah.

You know, I don't know. It's always a balance, you know, when you get into it, you can't go on every single job. And, yeah, I talked to someone a while ago and they said, you know, I. I was laying under these giant arborvitae trees for four hours, just staring at them and watching how the wind makes up. And I'm like, who that. Who has time to do that? Like, and so, you know, a number of people ask me on Italy, like, how do you manage something like that? Like, I came out of Italy like a, you know, lying out of a cage where, like, the first customer, I put like 17 uplights on the first tree, 12 down lights and blew them out of the water. And I said, you know, you're going to have your production work. And I started off in lighting. Everything was production work. It was like 16 lights across the front of the house, two path lights, three path lights, two lights on the crepe myrtles, in and out, done by noon, get to the next job. And then really understood that when you have the opportunity to do something special in design, that's where you get your. Those are the jobs that you take the most pride in. And so like in my business we kind of shifted. That was like 2011. And then continued to build my design skills, up going to different trainings, coaching, everything else we could do on it. and I don't use it all the time. Like I, you know, I trained up. I have two other working on a third designer in my company and they can handle a lot of the production work. But when someone comes out, you know, this month, last four months, been working on about a 350, $400,000 project at Country Club. And that's all about artistic design, how to make and that's what I love doing. But I still bring in an assistant to to do all the boring work to write it all up, you know, so that's just managing. But I, you know, I think you might as well be good at what you're doing and try and be the best at what you're doing and. But you have to be good at business. You know, that was always. I sat on the board at Ellie for years and I said, you guys don't talk business at all. No, we're just design. I'm like, you can be like the greatest cabinet maker in the world, but if your business is terrible and you're a one man show, you have nothing, you're not making the money you want to make, you're not gonna, you know, have a legacy that you really can like exit your business at some point. So you know, you have to be locked in on the business side. So it's always a, it's always a balance. But you know, I would urge everybody, if you're in lighting, become, become great at lighting design. And it's something that you could continue to learn and, and develop and grow in. So.

Being good at lighting design is a business decision, right?

Well, yeah, and you mentioned like the $300,000 country club. I mean if you're not really good at design, it's going to be harder to get that job. You know, it's like that's a, it's a way to differentiate yourself. And so it's kind of weird because like, wait, becoming good at lighting design is a business decision, right? So that's where it's like, it's not all business, it's not all design. There is a spectrum and that everyone kind of falls. What would you just say? What's your knee jerk reaction? Without giving them.

I think you're about that 75 business. You know, you need leads, you need you need a good process, a good sales process, like how you're engaging with your customer, what is your presentation like, you know, so I think you just have. We have to push ourselves to be good at everything we're doing. But I remember talking with Tom Fetty. He was the ultimate. He found it outdoor lighting perspectives at the beginning, and he sold it, took a break for a while, got back into lighting, and I started talking about design with him. And he's like, I don't see the purpose of doing this. I'm like, just add two lights on every tree. And he's like, I did that, and my average order size went up $2,000. I was like, yeah. And that's a. Like, basic, simple design, but, you know, forever. People just put one light on every single tree. That's what the budget was. That's what the customers came to expect. But when you get the opportunity to do something special, you take photographs of it, you know, you open that door up to your customers, because if you don't tell them about it, they're never going to know what the possibilities are.

Yeah, well said. Yeah, well said. Yeah. I think, it's interesting to kind of just, you know, think about it and. And, you know, I. The. The better you get at design, it doesn't mean you're going to get better at business, but you just laid out an excellent example of, like, how. How it can help you grow your business. so we were talking about ily, just so you guys know, if you're not. If you're not familiar with it, it's International Landscape Lighting Institute. and when I. When I was, you know, joined that group, I. I kind of said the same thing. I was like, hey, don't take this the wrong way, but you guys suck at marketing.

Like, oh, yeah.

I've been in the industry since 2007, and the first time I went was 2019 or 20. Like, really? You know what I mean? and they have a great product. Like, it's awesome. You know, people go there, and it really helps people not just get better at design, but then, you know, it can help them grow their business. So, yeah, I'm with you. Like, I really want to be that. That business voice. And even though it doesn't mean I don't think design's important, I just want to be the business voice to help people further their business.

Ryan Lee says people pay more for artistic design

Yeah.

And we. I've teased you a little bit because you're, you know, about being a designer. I'm like, ryan, you're a designer at this point. I mean, you've been through all the courses, you've worked with the Best designers. So you just have to embrace.

Brace that and don't call me a designer.

Yeah. And people pay more for artistic design.

Yeah. I don't try to say I'm not. I mean, honestly, like, I would put myself. I don't know. I don't know. I'd have to think about that more. But I'm not, I'm not in the top 1%. You've got eight design awards from AOLP, three design awards from Lit. You're the only one I know that has the lc, the lighting certificate. and that doesn't necessarily mean just because you have the certificate that you're a better designer, but it kind of does, you know, I mean, like, you've, you've proven yourself through these things. So I would say I'm in the top 20% of light designers out there.

I'd say you're higher than that. But, I'm trying to be.

I was gonna say 1%, but no, you know what I mean?

There's ever been.

That's what, I think it's working on the craft, it's studying, it's doing those things. So again, I just, I don't really tout myself as that because there's like, if I'm, if I'm going to tell someone to learn lighting design, like, go to Illy, go talk to Patrick, like, there's other resources available for that. I just want to help you increase your price, help you close more deals, get more qualified leads, build a business, not a job. And, there's other people that can help you with other things.

Yeah, and I think we're always just trying to differentiate ourselves from our competitors. Like when you have that two minute elevator pitch to your customer and they don't know anything about you, they're getting three bids, like, why are you better than somebody else? And so, you know, when you could have the accreditations, you could be part of the cold program. You know, I did the lc. There's a number of things you can do, that automatically start setting yourself apart, taking good photography. Like all of that is just adding layers so that when you give that shocking price that it's justified instead of just like you're putting in crappy systems and Ryan Lee told you to increase your price, you increase the price. You know, you need to have like, reasons why you're charging more, why you're more valuable, why your time's more valuable. So, you know, I think, you know, you just go all in and, and try and, you know, make yourself the Best you can make yourself and set yourself apart.

Love it.

Oklahoma University sponsors Extreme Cold Plunge, a 10-year program

Well, you just got, literally got back two minutes ago, maybe 20 minutes ago now from Illy. you. Were you just there for like the presentation night and everything?

We're, we've been a 10 year sponsor, so, yeah, I think it was 2017, 2018. They brought in James Selecki, myself, Dawn, John Tremaine because Italy was like about to collapse. That's when Jan had left, retired Oklahoma University picked it up. And, we were, we got the first course going again, so it's first one without Jane. And that was actually m. Myself, Greg Matthews, Brian Shoup, Kevin Fontaine. We're all in the same group. And I remember meeting Greg for the first time. We were talking about this. We got up at like five o' clock in the morning, two night, two mornings ago, and did the hot spring to the cold plunge. And I was like, you remember the first time, like us meeting, like two total, like Alphas, like, just staring each other down, trying to say, like, why we're better than the other ones. But that was a. Yeah, it's an experience. It is a true boot camp. Like you, you go in there and it's like, no sleep, crappy weather, always. but I think the best thing about it is actually getting that time away from your company and being able to spend, you know, hours at night talking to other designers. So it's, it's a worthwhile program. I. I love it. And I always drag a couple people there, so I love it.

Well, I'm jealous I missed out on the hot spring cold plunge. I'm, I'm into extreme cold plunging and like, I missed it, so.

Yeah. Have you been doing that for a while? the cold plunges?

Not, I mean, not like daily. I just like, if I can go jump in a cold river, I'm gonna do it.

You know, my son and I set up a horse trough outside usually about every October, November, and then we'll just jump in the, like crack the ice, jump in it. Sweet. It is the best thing. I love doing that.

That's awesome.

Sterling Summit in Greece was way better than I was expecting

Well, we just got back a few weeks ago from Secret Summit. Or not Secret Summit, Sterling Summit in Greece. And, you know, up until I guess that event, I never, I never viewed us as competitors. But I think I might be a competitor now. You and I. Yeah, I never thought of you as a competitor, but now I'm kind of pissed because I'm, I'm known for putting on the best events in the landscape, lighting, space, Like, I don't know if you know her. And that one was awesome. Like, that one was like, damn it. I think I just got dethroned. Like, now I gotta work hard. I gotta think. So now it's good.

I don't think we'll top that one. That was something that, you know, when I won the little war and I got to meet Altheria and talk with her and become better and better friends, and she's come into ours. We've been saying for years, like, it would be great to bring the lighting community to Greece just to experience, you know, sitting on top of the Acropolis or sitting on the rooftop bar, looking at the Acropolis at night, seeing the beautiful lighting, the temple of Athena, the temple of Poseidon, and seeing the history that goes into it. But talking to the designer who did it is just another level of lighting design that, you know, truly, like a dream, one of those things, like, how would we ever do that? How would we, you know, get guys to actually invest in their time, take time out of their business and go to Greece? And, you know, that was a blast.

It was incredible. It was honestly, like, it was way better than I was expecting. just so well done. And I think it was. It was really cool to see your vision become a reality, like, to be part of that. And I just kept thinking, like, why? I mean, there was a decent number of people there to get people to travel 24 hours. And, I mean, that's the furthest I've been away from home. that's not easy to do. But at the same time, when I was there, I was like, why are there not more people here?

There are so many people. Even at Italy, Like, I was. I had my finger over the button to. To buy the trip and just decided. And it's a. It's that hard thing of, like, stepping out of your comfort zone when you're at home. You have so much crap going on. to just say, screw it, let's do it, and just go all in, you know? So it was great. I think we had about 35 people go there all together. But there were a lot of people that, like, are you doing it next year? I'm like, no, we're not going to Greece next year. So we'll have to figure out something fun next year. But I don't think we'll top that.

It's. No, I'm trying. I've got a couple calls into the pyramids and seeing what they can.

Do, but their lighting sucks, though.

The thing is, like, It's a good example though. Like, it's easier to stay home. It would have been easier for me too, dude. We had to get, you know, my mom to watch the kids and if she's sick and like, just all the stuff, it's easier to make excuses. And I think it's just a good lesson. Like, listen, if you have that prompting, if you feel like maybe this would be the thing that would change my career, change my life if I give me a break, whatever it is, like, there's too many people that don't take enough risks. And you know, I guess for some people, like, for me it wasn't necessarily as much of a risk as it was for someone else. Like, you tell me I have an opportunity to go do that. Of course I'm going to take advantage of it. But there's too many people that make excuses and then have regrets later. Yeah, most people are not going to go attend event like, ah, I should have just stayed home and worked eight hours, you know.

But I find it happening so often that you kind of get this like inclination to do something like as simple as, like reaching out to a customer that you haven't talked to for a year. Just like sending a quick note, like they come to mind. It would take me two seconds to do it, but instead I, like, they probably don't want to hear from me. And then when you actually do it, like, thanks, I was just thinking of you. So it's like, you know, doing those little things that you're, you kind of feel that inclination to do. And so often most people just get nervous or come up with a reason not to do it. And so, you know, in like both my companies, I try to create that culture of like, if something comes to your mind, you want to do it, knock it out, just do it.

Yeah, there's, there's usually not regret.

Patrick O'Neill attended Alpha Theory's lighting conference in Greece this summer

what were some of your takeaways? I mean, you were the one that had the vision for this event, got people to it. Sometimes the hardest part is just getting it and hitting the start button. were you able to enjoy it at all? I know you had a lot of.

Things going on, but yeah, I had an election going on. So that started off in July. So it was crazy because originally like Laura and I had a two week trip planned and then it came down to like, well, Patrick, you could take a three day break from the campaign. So that just went into like, it. It kind of took away a little bit of the fun. You know, I showed up like night of the first dinner with my suitcase, and I'm dragging it around to each of the different places. but it's still. It's just. My favorite part of everything was just watching all of you enjoy it. And so, that was great. And it was something I experienced four years ago. And to just watch everybody having fun and, you know, Alpha theory did amazing. The dinners are great, the dancing, the, you know, everything that went on. Seeing lighting in restaurants, you know, just opening our eyes a little bit more to, you know, how similar, different fields of lighting are and how the best practices we do in lighting in outdoor landscape lighting apply to other. Other skills of lighting as well. We're doing the same thing.

Yeah, it was really well done it. With the way it was choreographed. I. You know, I. You probably had. I don't know if you had the pressure or not. I know when I do, I'm like, okay, I'm doing an event. We got to make sure it's packed, every minute taken for. But I really did appreciate that you didn't have every hour spoken for. It allowed us to, I guess relax a little bit. And. And actually when we did have, like, lecture, if you want to call it that, we were able to take in a lot more instead of like, okay, go from this one and then go to this one. You just. You can't think straight. So really well done there. And it was a lot of Eleftheria's team. You had, like, Greg and Chris and Andy and these guys, like, they. They got to speak and talk about their project. So just really well done. Congratulations.

Well, the whole thing is, like, if we screw that, screw everything up. You're in Greece. Yeah, just go have fun.

Yeah, that's true. Really, really good stuff.

I sent out an email today with kind of my top five takeaways

So, yeah, I shared, a couple weeks ago on my podcast, and I sent out an email today with kind of my. My top five takeaways. So, you're on my email list. Go, go check it out.

What were your top five takeaways? Why?

You want me to go over them? I just. They just emailed it out.

I'm not gonna read your email.

Oh, you're not?

Greg Matthews says contractors should think like lighting designers, not just contractors

All right, here we go. well, let me pull it up. I know. I know what they are off the top of my head, but I can't remember what order I went in. So, you know, one thing was, you know, and she. They. They. They really are lighting designers. Like, I. I look at most of us in these communities, we're kind of like contractors that identify as lighting designers. You know, we Think of, like, contractor first and then design. Whereas, like, they're truly designed, and they'll spend hours and days and weeks just on conceptual stuff. Now, the average landscape lighting job in the US is probably 5 and $10,000. So that's where, like, you got to be careful here. But on those special projects, absolutely. Like, you got to think like a designer, not just a contractor. Yeah, that was. That was a big one. Just to see it in person, you know, And I learned some of that from Ilya. Learned some of that from Jan already. But again, just to see another. Another example, of that was really, really cool. she mentioned saying no. Like, learn to say no. Which. That's been a thing I've really tried to do these last about 18 months. I used to say yes to everything. And there's a season where I think you almost have to, and. But, you know, imagine, like, once you do the Olympics, once you do the Acropolis, you can kind of afford to say no. So my takeaway is, like, maybe some of us should just go do a project at cost or lose money, whatever, to get that, like, resume builder, so that then you can say no, because most people just aren't saying no enough. And I get it. They can't afford to, you know.

Yeah. But there's a great lesson that I got from Nels Peterson. we were talking about, you know, getting started, and he had a phenomenal customer. So he went out there, he did the design, sold the design. Then he shows up with his boots on, doing his install, and she's just pulled him aside. She's like, nels, I never want to see you dressed like this again. She's like, you're a designer. Keep nails. Carried himself in such a way that, you know, he oozed confidence on design.

Right.

And so I, you know, I've always taken the approach, like, forever. I show up with my hat on, my collared shirt, you know, my boots on, and coming to the install, or coming to the design, the consultation. Like, I'm an installer that does design, and I change that up. Where, you know, I show up on every install, where my truck's perfectly clean. You know, I'm put together, I've, all prepared, and I am coming in as a designer. And I think that's one thing, you know, we want to elevate a little bit. If it's just how we dress, how we present ourselves. Like, I think that's an important step, especially in the design phase. I still go out and do some installs but I just don't have time as much anymore. so I'm still not afraid to, you know, throw in the work boots and get the shovel, out, or the T handle trencher and do that. But I think it's really important that we look the part of a designer when we're meeting with customers.

Yeah, I like it. I mean, you know, I'm like, I'm always saying, raise your price, raise your price. And anyone today could just raise their price by 10% and make more money. But there's a point where like, okay, 20, 30, 50, double my price. Like, you have to have a reason. Yeah, you can't just charge a thousand a. Like, because you want to, but start dressing the part, differentiating yourself suddenly. Yeah, you. You can charge what you want. You can demand that because you're different. Everyone else is showing up in the shorts, in the hat, whatever. You show up looking like a designer, show those awards. I mean, now all of a sudden, it makes sense to pay you double. Yeah.

And that's. I think that confidence is important. I had a customer probably a year ago. It's like, I'm getting quotes from three other of your competitors, and I was like, oh, who are they? I was like, I give you a list. Like, I think Jim Ply is great. Greg Matthews is great. You know, you bringing someone in from out of town. And she's like, well, no, it's an irrigation company. Like, they're not my competitors. I don't even know what other companies do. And there's some good. There's some really good companies. I think we have like 18 lighting companies in Northern Virginia, D.C. like, our little metro market. but my attitude is like, no, I want to be compared with, like, who are the best designers out there. So if you want another quote, you know, I'll. I'll call Jan, and Jan could come out. I think she's like 35, 000 for her to sign. you know, we could even bring Alpha Theory out. She's a lot more. If she's going to come from Greece, but, you know, just having a little bit of that swagger when you're talking to the customer, that confidence. You know, Nel's did amazing at that. I think, you know, I try and at least, you know, I've been doing it long enough that I'm. I know we could do a better job and have a better design. So, you know, I don't want to be like, Tommy boy with the sale or squeezing it tight. And I was like, I Kind of have the attitude that you could walk away from it any. Any project. I could walk away at any minute, and I'll be fine. And so I think that's an important attitude to have.

You have to be willing to walk away from lucrative sales jobs

The whole, like, if you have a million dollars in your bank account, how do you act?

I know. How do you. How do you manage that? Because I find, like, I'm schizo when it comes to that. Like, I. I, do like to wake up, like, I'm broke, because that motivates me to be like, hey, I don't want to feed my kids ramen today, so I'm probably going to go and work hard. But then when it comes to actual closing the sale, if you. If you do that and you tense up like the Tommy boy or whatever, nothing's happening. You know, you're not getting that deal. So you do have to be willing to walk away and be like, hey, it's up to you. I've given you guys enough information to make an educated decision. Doesn't hurt me one way or the other. What do you guys want to do? How do you manage that?

Well, I tell all my. All my, like, my technicians that are becoming designers. I'm like. And they're younger. They're like, 25. I'm like, you ever notice when you're just pursuing girls and they're, you know, they're at that age. I was like, women are never attracted to you if you're, desperate to try. Like, yeah, you're a single guy. When I was in high school or college, it was like, once I had a girlfriend, then all of a sudden, like, I was more interesting to other girls. What could they. The hell. What's going on? It's the same thing. Like, sales is psychology. So it's like, I'm not going to retire on this job. And you're not. Like, you're not going to make so much money. You're just going to. You're going to pay your bills, pay your guys, maybe set a little aside. So it's not going to change your life even to get that $50,000 job. It's a lot of fun to get it, but, you know, you have to be willing to walk away. But on the other side, you know, what I like to say is, I really am excited to do this job because this is fun. Like, this. This is going to be a challenge for me. It's something that's different, you know, I really want to see. I have a vision of what I want to create in your. On your property. And I want to bring that vision to life. So the excitement for me isn't to get the check. The excitement is to see what the final project's going to look like. So I think that passion comes out to customers where they see, like, you know, I'm doing this because I love doing it. And if you don't want to do it, I'm going to go to the next customer that's willing to invest in, you know, my skill set and you know, how I'm going to perform. And it's worked out well for us. So, you know, we've been doing it a long time.

Well, you've been, running our lighting design calls twice a month Inside Lighting Academy and Landscape Lighting Secrets.

It really comes down to having confidence in yourself and not overthinking everything

Now for the. I think it's the last year.

Yeah.

is there anything that you've learned or any like, kind of common mistake or common thing that, that people screw up when they approach a project or approach a design, common denominators or anything like that?

I think it. I think it really comes down to, you know, just having confidence in yourself and not overthinking everything. Because guys call me all the time and it's like, I have a question. Would you do this or this? Would you? And they just, like, they're spending so much time in the thought process versus, like, just picking one, starting to do it, and go, like, I'm gonna try this. If it doesn't work, we can always fix it. But, you know, going with that first instinct, and the other part of it is like, slowing down on your install, on your design. Like, actually taking in. And Alpha Theory talked about this, like, let the project speak to you, which is a hard thing to do, especially when you're running, like, I got three consults today. You know, you can't really, like, let this house know speak to you, but it's like slowing everything down just a little bit. It's not spending four hours staring at a tree, but, you know, letting, like taking in that project a little bit more and taking a little bit more time and then having confidence so you don't have to call Ryan or call me or someone. It's like, just do it and then fix it. Because, like, when we started in lighting, there wasn't anybody to call really. You know, there wasn't somebody. You know, I didn't. I knew of jam, but know same thing. I didn't really hear about Illy until 2017, about taking the course as kind of its own little niche group of lighting designers. So it was Just things that we had to do. And I think that, like, the mockups are really nice when you're out there at night to try some different things out. But, you know, just have some confidence in, in what you're doing. Don't, don't overthink everything and relax a little bit. Try it out, see if it doesn't work, you just move the light.

That's, that's the, that's the lovely thing about exterior lighting, interior. Like there's, we've already, you know, framed it in or whatever it is. And I feel like that's a good strategy for life in general.

Like all I do, I think the reason, the only reason I'm at the point I'm at, where I'm at in my life is because I just take action and sometimes it's right and a lot of times it's wrong, but then I just make it a wrong action, a right action, just pivot, you know. So I think that's well said when it comes to the lighting design. I'm trying to get the message out for members of Lighting Academy and secrets. Like, you guys don't. I don't know if they know what they're missing out. Like, if you, you can go to Patrick's call, take a picture of like a house. You're like, I'm going to meet with this person next Tuesday. What should I do? You know? And like, just. Why would you not want to get a perspective from someone with such. Yeah, you got, is it 25 years, 30 years? I don't want to date you, but.

It'Ll be 27 this December.

So you got a lot of experience, you've won awards, you clearly have the expertise. I'm like, why would you guys not be like, bouncing these ideas off? I'm like, hey, what could I do that's special on this project? This isn't just a $8,000 project. Or I'm going to put a light on each side of the window and like two lights on each tree or whatever. But like, this is, this is the country club. This is the, you, know, I'm going to present to a home builder. What could I do to. It's just going to blow them away. Like, I'm just really. I want that message out because I really appreciate the way you're serving, the way you're helping the community. I just want to help more people. So. Yeah, thanks for doing that.

No, that's fun and that's a, It's a good time. Just, you know, Any one of us, we could sit around, talk about installs, talk about design, talk about business. Like, you get us in a room, that's what we're talking about. So that's always a, a fun, fun activity. You know, I think in life, it is so much of, like having a vision of what you want to do, taking that risk and just actually doing it. There's so often I'm just amazed that I talk to people and they just don't. They don't take that first step. And so often I found myself where it's like, I'm not sure what I'm doing, but if I'm moving forward, another opportunity is going to come up. And you know, what I learned from taking that step so often, like, leads to something I was never thinking about. Where if I overanalyze and think about everything and not take action, then, you know, then nothing happens. You sit there six months later and time goes by really fast. So it is taking that step and then just having some vision, like, you know, where do you want to see lighting profits in two years or three years and how is it going to impact the community? Or, you know, what are we doing in Sterling Lighting? What are we doing for Daylum and what does it mean for like, you know, my people, what we're working, what are we building, what's the culture? You know, those are all things like, as leaders, like, we have to, we have to have that vision and then be the ones that are taking that, you know, the spearhead and really going after it.

Yeah, I love that. That's such a good analogy. As you're talking, I'm imagining this path, like step one, step two, whatever. And it's like, people don't go from step one to step two. They don't even know that step three, that wasn't even necessarily like, there was actually three, four and five and different things and they just weren't far enough to know that there's like this whole possibility they're still stuck on one going, which light should I use? Yeah.

What should I be doing here?

Lighting here? Like.

Yeah, Wolf, I don't know.

Like, just go try it. See what it, see what it looks like.

Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome.

You've got, um, the tariffs that you've been dealing with

Well, you guys, you guys are always making moves. You've got, you're consistent with your Sterling Summit. I mean, obviously Greece was phenomenal. you've got, the tariffs that you've been dealing with. you guys are trying to launch this new American made product. you, what's the update on the tariffs, I mean I don't, I don't, I seriously don't want.

I heard we got the. What is it? Whatever that drug is that people do. You know, that was the fentanyl drug tariff. The 10 was reduced. You know, there was the threat of it going to 100 add on if.

We do fentanyl, the tariffs are eliminated, drops off.

so that's like, it's out of my control. And so, you know, Damien, he's really active and looking at that like, I look at it like I can't control what, you know, the, the governments are going to do. So what can I control? That's why we started the American launch and that's moving along well. We have a thousand fixtures currently in production on one line. We have, you know, about ah, 500 to 700 of like three other products. And just working on the electronics, we had a little problem on the, between two resistors when it was going out because some of the safety devices we had the, the over or under voltage, protection device and then also another one for heat. And those two actually were interacting with each other and causing a resistor to burn out.

So is this same technology different? Is it similar or similar?

It's just we're trying to build in more protections into the, into the electronics and trying to make all the electronics here in Virginia. So yeah, that's been interesting. And then, you know, I did the the political campaign, which that was 105 straight days of, you know, didn't have one day off, constantly working and there's so much I learned going through that. And I'd recommend to anybody get involved in local government. And actually, you know, if you get a chance to run a campaign, they are a ton of fun. it's just you're totally in the, in the war, in the battle and you're going through it and. But there were some like, best practices. I had to call people and ask them for money. I think we raised, we averaged about a thousand dollars a day that I'm literally calling strangers and going, hey, this is an important campaign. This is to save our community. I need $5,000.

And how much would be, would, would people give you 5,000? Would they give you $20 or like, what?

Oh no, we got, yeah, we had a lot of people give, you know, a thousand to $5,000. But it was like the best practices. There's one guy that, I think I called him five times. So I had a campaign manager, Janine Lawson, she was running, she had run for Congress. She's run for a number of races. She served, our community for 12 years. And she's like, give him a phone call as soon as you're done. Text him. Three days later, we're going to call him again. Text him. So it's like, then write him a note. And it's like, oh, if we were doing this in business, where it's like, I met a customer the next day I called them, then I sent him a text message, like, just left you a voicemail. give me a call when you get a chance, you know, then handwritten letter to them. you know, all these little things that are just best practices in sales was the exact same thing that, you know, I had to do on the campaign. So it was kind of reminders of, like, getting back to the, you know, what. That initial hunger we had at the beginning. Like, I want to get this sale. And, you know, the. The one guy that I called four times, I think it was the day before the election. You know, all sudden, $5,000 appeared in my account. I'm like, never talked to him, but wrote me a check.

So that's incredible.

It was fun.

If you believe in what you're doing, customers will love it

Well, you know, on that note, I think a lot of people, I. I don't know, maybe. Maybe I'm wrong. But I've heard. I've heard people tell me this. They're hearing you say that going, well, that someone followed up with me that much, I would tell them to piss off, or, you know, I would unsubscribe or whatever. But the, The. The truth is, like, data doesn't lie, right? And so, like, if the data says that if you follow up with someone 5200 times and then they give you $5000, then you should probably get started, you know, on, number one.

And if you believe in what you're doing, like I'm doing, like, if I'm doing a lighting design, I believe they're going to absolutely love it. And, you know, most of the time I remind customers, like, you're the one that called me, that you were interested in this. I'm going to transform your property. So let's get this done. And, you know, I think it goes back to, like, the weakness that, you know, we all have is, like, making decisions are tough. And so it's easier to pause and let you know. I've had customers, like, three years later call me up, and, like, I put it off. And three years went by really quick, and now I want to do the lighting. I was like, I Should have been following up more and been more passionate about, like, what I'm going to do, how it's going to transform, how much, you know, putting it back on. And then, like, you're going, this is for you. Like, you're going to see those lights come on for that first time, and it's going to take your breath away. And then every night when you're pulling in your driveway, you're going to, have that beautiful lighting coming. We have Thanksgiving coming up. We have holidays coming up. Like, when your guests all come in and your house is beautifully lit, people are going to notice. You notice amazing lighting. So, you know, if you're passionate about it and you're doing it because it's there for their benefit, like, you're the one that's going to get the enjoyment out of this. I'm going to get a check, but I'm going to spend it all because, you know, I got to keep running my business. But this is something that you're going to love. And it's just like having that passion. Like, what you're doing, like what we're doing in lighting is special. We're totally. I've never had somebody that regretted doing it afterwards that was like, I wish I didn't do lighting. They also. I wish I did it earlier. I wish I would have pulled the trigger. And so, you know, having that, you know, it's the confidence, but it's like, you're coming at it with their benefit. Like, this is for you. You're going to love it.

Well, that's just it, really. When you take it from transactional about, like, money. Because when it's about money, people get weird. Oh, I don't know. I don't want to ask about money, whatever. And take it from transactional to experiential. I was actually just talking with one of our members the other day, and he's like, oh, it's super slow. I'm like, have you. And I can't help but just solve. This is why Lindsay fight all the time. I try to solve.

Let me solve your problem. Yeah, no, just listen to it.

I went to solver mode. Have you maxed out Google Ads? Do you do the door handles? Do you do the yard signs? No, I haven't done Google Ads. I'm like, well, then you don't get to, you know, you don't get to say, I'm slow. are you asking every client refer for referrals? No, I don't like to do that. I'm like, well, I Do because I believe that what I'm doing is going to help other people. And if you make it about them, it's like, hey, every referral you give us, you're going to get a free year of lighting maintenance. Like you're actually helping them get free maintenance. Are you a dick? Would you do not want to help people, right? It's like give them an opportunity to say yes, they can say no, they can not read your email, they cannot respond to your text, they can do all that. But it's I believe our obligation when we are sold on ourselves, when we believe in that we have to follow up. Like otherwise that if you're not following up, if you're not doing these what I call the fundamentals, then you probably need to work on your belief because you probably don't believe enough in yourself, your offering, your business, your impact, all that.

And you do think about like how many customers that we, we have over. If you've been in the business five years, you probably have hundreds of customers. Like how often are we going back and touching those customers? They're giving a quick phone call checking on your lighting. And there's never a project that's ever finished. You know, even like I'll have my favorite project. We go and take photos and once I get the photos, I start looking at everything. Like there's things we could add to this. Yeah, there's things we didn't do. There's every single project I would change something on, after I get it done, like I would tweak or make something different. And so often on the sales process they don't do everything. They cut, you know, some sections out. So like are we actually making a phone call six weeks later after the install to go, hope you're loving your lights. We should go ahead and take a look at X. And so, you know, we'll have some custom. Some of your clients will have like you know, a thousand, two thousand, just a gold mine of people that love them, they love the impact that lighting did. But they don't have any follow up with their existing customers to, you know, keep in touch with them. And the worst thing that happens is like the customer builds a pool and they put in lighting with the pool guy and you're like, I had one lady said, she's like, I didn't want to bother you. I'm like, that's actually what I do. So you're not bothering me. Like now I've got to maintain this crappy system. This guy. Yeah. So now you Weren't.

You're not bothering me. I'm just homeless now, sleeping, so I literally have nothing to do.

Exactly.

Don't bother a lighting designer with a lighting question.

Yeah, don't bother me with money.

This was hard year. I mean, it's, you know, we had the government shutdown

how has, Dayloom been? How's. How's the design and installation business been?

Good. It's. This was hard year. I mean, we're dc, so we, we eat, live and breathe politics. I mean, it's, you know, we had the government shut down. That was crazy for us. So there's like the day tariffs were announced, stock market dropped, you know, so it's trying to just manage the things that aren't in my control like that I can't control this. So what I could do is X, you know, and try and overcome that. But, you know, overall leads were down. so it's been a little bit more of a challenging year and then just had a lot of other things going on, but we still had a great year, you know, still do a lot of business and have a lot of customers and I think we got, we're at 400 and plus five star reviews. So like the business is going great, you know, but it is still just, you know, I think it was an uncertain year, but I've been very confident that I think overall the economy showing resolve. You know, I think we're looking at, like 4.6, 4.8 GDP growth and that's something we haven't seen in a long time. So I think overall. But you know, Trump does bring uncertainty, especially in the D.C. metro market. He talks, you're like, ah, shut up. Yeah, so there's challenges with that, but.

Is it more challenging to grow your business once you get to a certain size

Have you found that it's

Is it.

I don't know. I guess I don't really know how to ask this, but like, is it, is it more challenging to grow your business once you get it to the size that you're at now? You know, like when you're young, I can grow by 10%, 20% every year. But then all of a sudden you get up to a certain number and a certain size where you have a certain market saturation. Are you, do you get to a point where you're like, hey, I'm just cool with sustaining?

Well, it's, you know, I think there's different levels of business. You know, it's like you could start off and go from like 0 to 100,000 to like 500,000 pretty easy.

But then once you hit 500,000, you start getting a team and you have to start like, changing up how you're doing business. It's not all just going through you doing everything, even though you're doing probably 85% of everything. And then that first big big barrier is a million dollars. The next big one, I think is three, and then the next one after that, six. So it's like. But in order for me to go from like $3 million to $6 million, I have to set, up the infrastructure and everything, you know, because it's like when we went from 1 million to 3 million, we. It took me forever to get to a million dollars. Then I hit that, and quickly. Within two years, I was at 3 million. Because the same skill sets that I had to set up to break a million.

Yeah.

You know, I put all the infrastructure in place to break 3 million. But for me to go from 3 million to 6 million, I have to build out a $6 million business and then push that. So that's kind of. It's been a sticking point for us. and then I'm. Obviously, I've got sterling and, you know, a million things going on aside from that.

So, you know, get into politics on a win.

Got into politics. Yeah. So, it is a decision and something I've looked at, like, do I. Am I comfortable keeping, like, my installation business at X level in order to grow the other one? Because ultimately I want to do everything at a super high level. But, you know, there's. There is constraints in time and everything else. And, you know, I'm very involved with my family, so I want to make sure I'm not, you know, developing all these businesses. My kids don't know me, and my wife leaves me. So, you know, there's always the balances. So, you know, I'm not sure. I haven't made up my mind if I want to put everything in, like I was about a year ago to go, let's go from three to six. Know, I think I might put more. More of my time into, you know, having the design for my artistic, expression and then keeping the business at that level and then putting more into Sterling and then, you know, whatever I'm doing politically and everything else. So making decisions on that.

Yeah, I mean, you're at an interesting spot where you, you, you get the freedom to. To make some choices. you know, people talk and kind of fantasize about multiple streams of income, which I think is awesome. I have it, but I didn't always have it. And, and it's. It's hard when you try to do it too early. There's people that are only doing like, 2, 300 grand a year on landscape.

Lighting, and like, okay, I would have five locations. Now you're like, oh, crap, I haven't even done that.

Let's just, let's just wait, right? But you know, once you get a business to a certain extent, let's say you, you want your personal income to be. I'm just throwing out numbers. $500,000. It's a lot harder to do that with one company. You know, if you're like, no, I got this one design installation firm and I got to bring 500,000 out. Well, that, that means there's going to be other constraints. Like, that means you can't hire as fast, or you can't afford to pay someone this, or you can't afford to advertise, so it's going to affect the company. Whereas if you're like, hey, I only need to take like a hundred or 200 from that company, because I'm going to get a hundred here and 100 here, 100 there. Now all of a sudden, that's an extra, like 3, $400,000. You can invest in that company to grow. You can spend more on advertising, you can hire managers, you can actually build a team. And so those are the type of constraints, I think, that people, it's those hard decisions when you get to that two, $3 million of like.

At each level, you have to risk everything to get to the next level

And even happens at a million, I guess, because a lot of people, they're like, well, no, I need to make 100 grand, 200 grand, and at a million, they're paying a couple helpers, and they're, they're not making what they think they, want and deserve. They're probably getting paid a hundred grand at a million. And it's like, that's not enough. It's like, well, the hard part is you need to hire more people. Where's the money? Right? And that's where I'm like, invest in advertising. You've got to. If you want a $2 million business, are you prepared to spend 300 grand? Yeah, and most people aren't.

I talked to a really good business guy, and he's like, you know, at each level, you have to be willing to, to risk everything and go out of business to get to the next level. And so it's like, if you're comfortable at a million, you know, you're like, do I, need to risk everything to get to 3 million? Or if I'm at 3 million, do I now want to risk everything all over again? You Know, reinvest everything in the company, be willing to cut my pay or do whatever we need to do. but it's interesting. Damien, my business partner in Sterling, he was. He owns a mosquito control company, and he had a good friend that Damian, was looking at, like, multiple streams of income. And his friend's like, you know, I think we have a unique opportunity is when mosquito control was like, just really getting in, and he was at $2 million. And I think three years later, he was at $17 million. So, he just went all in. But he's like, I. He was taking a, you know, much smaller profit. You know, really investing everything in the company, building out the infrastructure. You know, I will say, like, I worked a lot harder some years doing 600,000 than what I do now, because you could build. Build the team, build the staff, you know, do all the best practices with your employees. So you. You have people that stick around. so, you know, those are all things that, ah, you know, you look at. I was just reading Brian's quote right down there. Congratulations on your new truck, buddy.

Yeah, I love seeing Brian's growth. I just love seeing people come in. They work on their brand, they work on their price, they work on their process, they work on design. Brian's a good example of just one thing at a time. Getting better every single year. Love it.

Yeah. Yeah.

what.

You just finished running for office and looking ahead to next year's summit

What else do we got to talk about? Did we. Did we talk about enough?

yeah, I don't know. We got this. Looking at next year's summit. I think next year we're. We're gonna. We've been doing design for five years. I think next year we're gonna do. Actually going to bring all the tools and the equipment and allow people to, you know, conceptually design a fixture, have it 3D printed, then get it actually made. And that was just a fun activity to kind of mix it up and, and try to do more things. You know, I want to be more in the field and go out, and, you know, meet some guys at their business and see how they're doing this year. So, yeah, that's a lot of fun, you know, working hard on the American made product and, you know, we'll see what, what I'm doing on the political side as well, and how much time that's going to take.

But yeah, I mean, you know, Are you gonna stay in the arena? Like, what, what.

I'll be in the arena. I got a call. Yeah, it was. I mean, it was a crazy election that, you know, in D.C. you had the government shut down, then they cut off food stamps. So, like November 1st or whatever. The program was SEPA, so they had a higher turnover, higher voter turnout than we've had. And it was the worst year to be a Republican in 100 years, even though I run as a Republican and I'm an environmentalist. So it's a weird combination, but we took 100% of the 99% of the Republican vote, and 25% of the Democrat vote and still were 400 votes short.

that sucks. Like, the problem is, you know, and I'm guilty of it too, your name, like, your position wasn't big enough on the card, so it's just like, I don't know that name. I'll just do Republican, right?

Yeah, it was a. The sample ballot made the difference. We still converted 25% of the people that voted, for the governor on one side, and it was a huge slaughter in our area. And we converted 25% of them, but she lost by 26. And I was told at the beginning, like, if the governor's race is nine points or higher spread, like, you have no chance of winning. But the fun thing about it is, you know, we ran a super clean campaign so, like, kept everything above board. So, you know, reputation, the community is great. I'm coaching the guy who won and, you know, working on, like, podcasts and doing some things locally to bring the issues about the data centers and everything that we've been fighting. So, you know, I think I'll actually have more power not being in office and I'll be able to, you know, accomplish the goals and not have to. The job's a terrible job. Like, political office sucks.

It.

I don't know why anybody would ever want to do it.

But as you just finished running, as.

I just finished running, and I said at the beginning, like, who the hell wants. It doesn't pay well, you know, if you're not corrupt, it's a, It's a terrible job. So I was like, so much easier.

If you're just corrupt. Yeah.

Oh, that's. Yeah. You make a lot of money because.

I was reading an article, about you and, and I can't remember the guy's name that won. But, so you got, you're gonna. Because it seemed like you had some things that you were in alignment with. So you're gonna.

Got him to shift every one of his policies. He moved from, like, his policy to mine. So that was a good thing.

And that's great.

Yeah, we We've changed the conversation, in our, in the, in our district, like, or our county. So.

Yeah.

And I had lunch with him right afterwards. It was, you know, Tuesday was it last Tuesday was the election. Saturday went to lunch. It was like, one day to kind of recover because, like, I don't like losing anything. I think wrestling was, like, the greatest thing ever in life to teach me, you know, because it's like you're one on one on the mat, and you either win or lose, and you can't make an excuse for it. So it's just kind of, Well, I didn't get this. You know, we were sitting there and I had, like, Washington Post, everybody there, like, you're, we think you're, you're the only candidate we had as 100 chance of winning, and nobody expected this. So to lose. Like, I look at my friend and I'm like, she's like, we're 400 votes short. I'm like, we lost. She's like, yeah, like, how the, how the hell that happened?

Oh, Man.

And they're all like, everybody was shocked. So I had all these old women crying and everything. Had to give a motivational speech.

Yeah.

Like, one day to kind of like, all right, that sucks. I can mourn for a day, and then the next day, you know, let's get back into the fight.

M. Wilber: I think most people complain about politics

And then, you know, it does bring me up so much because we have so much going on in Sterling and so much in development, and that's. I love doing the product development, so, you know, it frees my time up. But then I could still work on, like, other passions that I have as well, so.

Well, I mean, it's cool, man. It's, it's admirable, I think. I, I don't feel like I, I've earned the right to complain about politics, government, anything. I, I, I don't complain about anything because, like, what, what have I done to affect the change? You know what I mean? So I don't watch the news. I don't even if I watch the news, I don't get to complain. Like, I, I'm not running for office. I'm not, like, actively doing those things. So I think most people complain. They don't do anything about it. For you to like, just, you know, I know your friend passed away, and for you to step up and, like, do that, that's especially with, like, the timing. You had your summit. You got, you have, like, like, you're bored, you know, so that, that's just really, really cool. And I just feel like, you know, if we don't have people like you, then we're not going to have change. Yeah, I feel like I'm affecting change in an area where I can control and I am passionate about, for politics. I'm like, please bless Carters and people like him to, you know, step up to the plate and help us.

Have an awesome world. I was talking to Schwindler about this, and I was like, dude, one time in your life, just run for something. Like, just. Or be engaged. You know, I think it's different locally. Like, the federal elections are one thing and what's going on, the divisiveness. But, like, locally, in our community, we could have big impacts. And, you know, for so long, I'm like, I'm just a lighting guy. Like, what does it matter? But then it's the same principles. Like, you have a vision, you're a leader. And it was amazing to see, like, people like. I think that's really missing in the world today is like, you know, those people that are, like, not looking to be scumbags, that are like, have a vision and they want to do something better. And when you start articulating that, like, other people follow and they're like, this is what we need. And we just need, you know, we need more and more people that are willing to. To step out, you know, be the tip of the spear, fight, you know, for good causes.

And, you know, we really do because it's. It's. It's historically such a dirty job. Like, you can't get to the top. You can't affect change unless you've got some, like, you know, dirt under your fingernails or whatever, or maybe you've done some unethical things. And it's like, gosh, that's the thing that prevents. Because think about them. M. There's so many amazing people in this world. And then you look at some of the people that rise to the top as leaders, and we're like, what happened here?

Yeah, this is our best. I shouldn't say this, but I met like, the governor, Lieutenant governor. I was like, I have customers that are more impressive. Right.

Exactly. How do we get our clients to run?

I know a lot of most people don't want to engage, but, you know, one of the stories I told a lot, I was like, you know, what America was missing. This is my historical thing, is like, you know, William Wilberforce in England was passionate about ending slavery. And he had a fight for 20 years. You know, he's the movie Amazing grace, all that. But it was like one man changed the entire direction. We had to have a civil war to do it. We had one person 30 years earlier, 40 years earlier, in England, have the same cause, and he's like, you know, we can make tremendous impacts, you know, even in lighting, outside of lighting, like we have. You start off small, you have your family, then you have your business, and you're kind of, you know, increasing your sphere of influences, but it's the exact same practice, same same philosophies we have in life. It's like, you know, you're passionate, you're going after things. You live your life with integrity. You do what you say you're going to do, and you work. You know, you just, One of my big things, that campaign was like, I could outwork anyone. I don't care who you are, I'm going to outwork you. And, you know, I think that's always the one thing you could control. So, like, my son's a freshman in college, and I'm like, you.

There's.

He's at Rensselaer. Great school. And I'm like, there's kids here that are probably a lot smarter than you, but you could outwork every one of them. And so, like, that's the true one thing that we could always control is like, you know, and. And I did look at, it like, love or hate Trump, he's 78 years old, and I'm like, how the hell does he. He do these crate? Like, I can't keep up with it. So, like, you know, I was, like, tired after the election. Then Friday, like, should I go to Italy or not? And then Damien's like, just go. I'm like, all right. Like, I got Ryan's podcast at 5, and then tomorrow we're doing video shoots. And so it's like, well, I'll have time to be tired later, but, you know, just push ourselves and, you know, I think we're capable of doing a lot of things, but the one thing we could really control is our work ethic.

Yeah. Well said. I feel like it's,

It's underrated for sure. By the way, do you remember that one time that you and I wrestled in the streets of Athens almost?

That happens. That tends to happen. I don't know why.

Oh, man, that could have ended so much worse. Yeah.

Where are you going to do your summit up next

So where are you going to do your summit up? You gotta. You gotta. I was thinking Moscow might be kind of cool. Finland, Iceland. We could go in some of the, ice houses in Iceland, I don't know.

Will you just plan it for me now and I'll just put my logo on it? We could do that.

We could do something together. That'll be fun.

That would be cool. Yeah. I'm down. Yeah. I don't know, we're trying to simplify a little bit. I'm trying to say no to, to a lot of things too. you know, landscape, lighting, live. We've done quite a few of those where we haven't done one for probably a year now because there's other people kind of doing training. I was just trying to fill a void, you know. so really we're focused right now, at least at 20, 26, light it Up Expo in March and then our secret summit, which is our members only event. that'll, we haven't, we haven't published it yet, but most likely that one will be Utah again.

Yeah.

And you know, we focus on business. So, we might go look at some lights or something outside the hotel. But. Yeah.

You've designed a community for business owners to come to

Well, I think your big thing you're doing is a community. Like you're, you're developing a community because like, you know, anytime you're in leadership, it's, it's a lonely position. Like you even going home to your wife and you can't sit there and tell her, like, here's all the crap I dealt with today. Like, well, that just ruins the night for everybody.

So it's like, that's a good way to go to therapy. Yeah.

Now we're going to counseling. This sucks. Depressed her. so it is like, it is a lonely position. And, and you know, I think a lot of times when you're in your most challenging moments is when you feel totally alone and you're just like, this is the right step. Nobody else thinks it is, but I'm going to do it. And like, you know, what you've done is you provided a place for business owners to come to, you know, and and to get those bonds. So you can call Chris Applestand or you can call Schwindler and like, what do you got going on, buddy? And figure out like what's happening in their life or what's going on in ours. Run some ideas by them. So, you know, that's been an amazing. I think that's probably the strongest thing outside. It's coaching, it's doing everything. But like the community you've designed is, you know, been very helpful for people.

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. We're, we're trying to come up with the right terminology. Because we're not a coaching program. We really more are like a network, a community. We have, we have coaching. If you want coaching, like you get that included. But it truly is. And I wish you would have been at this last one because Nathan, was there. But we had like our 10k ideas where everyone, if you remember from last year, you get up in front of the room and share an idea that helped you make $10,000 in your business. And normally, you know, people are kind of shy and stuff like that, but we get to the end and we kept going. People were like, oh, he said, that reminds me another idea. And like you can't make this stuff up. It just happens, right? And so you went an extra like 45 minutes just sharing ideas. And I'm like, this is so epic. Like this is, this is what we want, this is what we need. we announced we're doing Friday, fly ins, we're doing two this year. So in addition to like Summit, which is, it's a very informal, like I'm not going to do the whole agenda and the walk up music and all this stuff, but Friday flyings at my house. So we're doing two of those. I can't remember the dates, but we'll get those to you. and again just to facilitate community, I come in on a Thursday night, we'll go out to dinner. Friday is all day at my house. We'll put some people in the hot seat, I'll get a guest speaker. Really kind of informal, just, just to get together, get those ideas out, and then fly home that night or Saturday, whatever, if you stick around, we'll go do something cool here in Utah. But that's really what we're doubling down on. It's just the aspect to, to keep people engaged because we've seen it, we have all the data and the metrics to back it. If people show up to the calls, if they show up to our events, their business is, is doing great. The people who we don't, it's like when, when did they join? Like who are they?

Who are they?

Yeah, they're not doing so well.

You go to conferences and I've been to many of them and so often like the biggest takeaway I got happened in like a conversation out in the, out in the hallway with somebody. so you know, I think that's you know, just talking to people. And then the other thing is like you get so ingrained in like the crap you have going on in your daily life that you know, it's hard to grow your business unless you pull yourself out for a little bit. And a lot of times it could be on the plane, could be, you know, you get some, some time where you get just a little bit of distance from your business and have somebody else look at it. That's where you're going to have the big changes.

Yeah, you're totally right. Maybe that's what we'll call the Friday flying. Well, they're called Friday fly ins, but I'm just going to be like, all right, hallway discussions.

All my discussions.

Yeah, I have a hallway. It's right here.

Just go talk to people.

That's honestly, like, that's what people want. And sometimes we're like, okay, we're moving on to the next thing because we've got this guest speaker lined up and blah, blah. It's like we just want time to chat, like, get some ideas going.

John Van was the winner of the 10k ideas contest

John Van, by the way, John Van was the winner of the 10k ideas.

What was it?

Well, I don't know if we can say it. I mean, money to go there.

That's there.

We have to have some secrets.

Yeah, yeah, I get that.

but yeah, John won. It was just his member vote and, he won a free month of landscape botting secrets.

Nice.

let's see. What does Brian Dank say? My, my 10k next year is awesome. Now I have to keep a ticket for 11 months. Only come up with one. Don't. Don't come up with another good idea for 11 months.

Save that for 20, 28 or something.

Yeah, exactly. Like Apple. you know, like they have to know what their new phone's gonna be. The Apple 22 or whatever, the iPhone 22. But they only release certain things at certain times, you know. Yeah.

It'S a secret. It's going to be a better camera and slightly faster.

Yeah.

Wow. One more megapixel.

432 megapixels. Holy cow. Yeah. So much better than 431. Well, I appreciate you coming on, man. I know you got a lot going on. You just got home. You need to go spend time with your family. Tell everyone. Hi. Thanks, so much for everything you do for landscape lighting Secrets for just a. The, at the landscape lighting community in general. it's awesome. Thanks for keeping me on my toes and, I love it, man. So thanks for everything you do.

I appreciate it. Thanks for all, all you're doing in the industry. And so, you know, it's the whole thing. When we talked years ago, it's like, how do we elevate this industry? Because it's. You know, we all went through that, like, trying to build this business. It's a tough business. Like, to go into landscape lighting as your career is a crazy, crazy idea.

What kind of idiot would do that?

You know, it's funny. I was talking to somebody, and, sorry to go on and on, but they sold data from. They're a broker, so they sold data from a build company to a data center and made $10 million in a month. Now, son of a. I'm in the wrong industry.

I know. Do you have a link? I'll buy your. Your course.

I was like, I'm trying to sell, like, a $10,000 lighting system and arguing with a customer like, it's worth it. 10 million bucks in a month. Like, why did I get into lighting?

But why are we so passionate about this stuff? Why do we care?

Yeah.

Oh, it's funny, but it's good to be surrounded by other lighting nerds. And, who knows? I mean, I thought. I've thought about that, Mike. If I had just, like, a hundred million dollars deposited in my account today, would I. Would I do episode 220 next Tuesday? I. I think I would. I kind of like it. You know what I mean?

So it'd be very easy to say no to any customer. It's like, I will come out and do your design, but these are my rules of engagement.

Yeah. If you don't like it, I'm literally not coming.

I don't care. Yeah.

Well, that's awesome. Again, I appreciate it. Go enjoy some time with your family. And if you're listening now, just go implement everything Pat told you how to do. Thanks, Pat.

thank you so much.

All right, see you guys. Have a good week. We'll see you next week. Unless I get a hundred million dollars.