Lighting for Profits - Episode 175

This week on the show we welcome, Michelle Mueller, co-founder of Garden Light LED and owner of KDM7 Corporation, she is a business leader with 30 years of expertise in driving growth. She has helped entrepreneurs build multi-million-dollar lighting businesses and co-developed the CEU-accredited Learn•Night•Light course. Her firms specialize in high-quality LED lighting and expert design solutions.

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Episode Transcript

Welcome to Lighting for Profits, your number one source for landscape lighting

Welcome to Lighting for Profits. All Light. All Light. All Light. Powered by Emory Allen. Get rid of your excuses. Your number one source for all things landscape lighting.

That's where the magic can happen.

You can really scale a business.

We really had to show up for.

Each other from lighting design, install sales and marketing.

You're a scaredy cat salesman, Kurt.

We discuss everything you need to know to start and grow a successful landscape lighting business. What do you think a hippo has.

To do with your business, Ryan?

Usually it's some weird childhood thing, some bully kicked your butt. I think the key factor here is trust.

All Light is the number one landscape lighting show in Tampa, Florida

Here is your host, Ryan Lee Allied. All Light. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the number one landscape lighting show in Tampa, Florida. Gosh, we are taking off like wildfire. So excited to be here with you guys. Listen, we're here to educate and motivate to help you dominate. If you're looking to start or grow a landscape lighting business, you're definitely in the right place. We got an awesome show coming up. We got Michelle Mueller with Garden Light LED coming on. We're going to be talking business strategy, pricing, sales, all the cool stuff, all my favorite topics. So make sure you guys stick around. Michelle has become, a friend of mine and excited, to have her on. She's been on the show before, but we're going to talk about some of the new things that she's been working on in her businesses and stick, around for that.

Two reminders before the show: Give Lighting for Profits five star reviews

by the way, guys, I forgot the last few episodes. I'm still begging for those five star reviews. So if you've not given Lighting for Profits a five star review, but you've received five star information, then go on to Apple or Spotify. Preferably Apple, because I'm trying to get to 100 reviews, guys. You know, it feels so good to get that to that century mark. Give me that five star review. Write something nice. Would, really appreciate that. And, also just two reminders. Two reminders and then we're going to get right into the show. Number one is if you have not scheduled your free strategy session with myself yet, all you have to do is go to landscapelightingsecrets. com click start now and watch that case study. You can book a call, you'll get a link to my calendar, we'll get on a call and literally this strategy session, guys, is epic. I've helped people make more money in 45 minutes than they've made in the past 90 days. Okay? So all you gotta do is book that call. We'll See where you're at, we'll see where you want to be, and then map out that plan to help you guys get there. And, it's really worthwhile if you want to find out more about landscape lighting secrets. We can fill you in on all that stuff. But, go book that call. And then the second reminder is we got lighted up Expo coming up, you guys. And, we're really starting to push this now. Lightitup expo. com you can get your tickets, the early bird pricing. Also, anyone who buys a ticket now and the early bird pricing in December is going to be entered into a raffle giveaway where our vendors and myself, we're putting together some pretty cool giveaways from fixtures, coaching, all sorts of stuff. So you'll be automatically entered. If you get your early bird ticket, just go to lightitup expo. com. it's the first of its kind. We're bringing together landscape lighting, holiday lighting, permanent lighting. We're gonna have breakouts, speakers, trade show networking, all the stuff, pro panels. It's gonna be awesome. So hope to see you there. It's in Orlando, February 28th, but get your ticket now to get the early bird pricing and get, entered into that raffle. Plus, it's a tax write off, guys. I know you just made a ton of money with holiday lighting. So, get your ticket right now. It's only like 350 bucks, plus 150 for the home service workshop. So 500 bucks and you get an epic, epic experience.

In just a couple minutes, we're going to have Michelle Mueller on the show

All right, guys, again, in just a couple minutes, we're going to have Michelle Mueller on the show. She's a friend of ours, and, she's been on the show before, but we're going to talk some really cool stuff that she's been working on. And, if you're wondering, like, how to price large projects, how to land some of these large projects, we're going to get into that. it's going to be a great show. Before I have her on, I want to talk about something that I've had on my mind. And, I was kind of teasing Michelle, before we started that, you know, I don't know if you know this, if you guys have noticed, but I am addicted. I am addicted. Chapstick. Okay? And, maybe. Maybe it's time I tell you why. Okay, So I grew up with single mother. My parents were divorced when I was like, zero or negative one. I'm not really sure, but grew, up with my mom. And, when my, I was My brother, my sister, and then I'm the youngest. And my brother was what we call a hellion. Okay? And so my mom, my poor mom, she would literally wake up early, get us ready for school, take us to school, drop us off, go to work. As soon as she'd get home from work, she'd be boiling water to cook dinner, and cook dinner, then clean up dinner, then put us to bed, and then just repeat every single day of her life. I'm like, holy cow, this woman, right? And my brother, like I said, was a hellion. So he got kicked out. He went and lived with my dad. I think he was like 12 or 13. And so that puts me about 7 or 8. So if I'm, you know, from about 7 or 8 years old until really when I moved out, I was raised by my mom and my sister. And so, my normal was not normal compared to everybody else. Okay? And I thought it was, though. I just thought my life was just normal because that was my reality. And, my mom always carried around, lip gloss, okay? You know, the Carmax with the yellow top, and it had, like, a ceramic. I don't know if they still have these or not. They're probably all plastic now, but it was like the ceramic cylinder she carried around this lip gloss. And she'd always ask, do you need any lip gloss? And sometimes she'd even call it lippy gloss. Lippy gloss. And, I was like, yeah, I want some lip gloss. And, fast forward today. And now you know why I'm addicted. But here's the funny part. So as I grew up, and by the way, I was a mama's boy, okay? I was a mama's boy. and I did everything my mom told me to do, asked me to do. I was that. I was that kid. And so I'm growing up, and I finally get old enough to drive a car, get some friends. We're going out to dinner now and movies. We're getting girlfriends. And, one day we're going to. I swear I had to have been 16 because we, like, I had a life at this point. And, we're going to leave my friend's house. And my lips were extremely dry. And I said, hey, does anyone have any lip gloss? And they go. They looked at me like, what did he just say? Like, they looked at me like I'm speaking a foreign language. Like, yeah, does anyone have any lip gloss? And they're like, lip gloss. I'm like, you guys don't know what lip gloss is? And they're like, chapstick. And I'm like, I don't know. I thought it was called lip gloss, okay? My normal was not everyone else's normal. I literally thought that everybody used a lip gloss. And now I realize that most of the male population refers to it as, chapstick. So every once in a while, I still use lip gloss, but most of the time, I'm a chapstick kind of guy. Now, now, the reason I'm telling you this story is because your normal is not everyone else's normal, okay? Especially in business. We fall into this problem because we start our businesses. We're super excited. But the one common denominator that m. Most of us as entrepreneurs have in common is we are terrible managers, right? How many times do we complain about, like, oh, man, it's so hard to find good help. And it's like, I can't. I can't ever keep anyone here. They want too much money or whatever. Like, we're sitting there complaining about the people that are supposed to help us grow this business, right? And you can't build a business without a team.

Instead of complaining about your team members, it's time to solve the real problem

So instead of complaining about your team members, it's time to solve the real problem. And the real problem is you. And it's because your normal is not their normal. So let me give you an example. When we. When you hire someone, how often do you hire someone for a position you need, like a new installer or you need someone to help you grow the business, do marketing or sales or something like that. Something that you're. You're not the best at. And it's hard to train them because you're like, all right, so, do your thing. Here you go. I, paid you money. Now go do the thing. And like, they don't know what to do. They don't have responsibilities outlined for them. They don't have expectations set. They don't have KPIs to know, like, how. How is their success going to be measured? Do they have a scorecard that shows them the five things that really matter in their role? Right? And most of the time, they don't. I mean, I look back at my business, it. I didn't have that for the first 10 years of my business, right? Because I didn't know that. I just thought everyone. Everyone's version of normal was my normal. Like, if. If you expect. If you do something, you just do it. Right? Okay, well, here's the kicker. If their normal was like, your normal, and they thought the way you thought, they probably wouldn't be working for you. They'd probably go start their own business, right? So you have to understand that your common sense is not everybody else's common sense. If it was, they probably wouldn't work for you, right? Or maybe they. Maybe they would be smart enough to not start their own business, right? You guys know what I'm talking about. If you've been in business longer than a few years, like, oh, man, am I doing the right thing here? Should I just go get a job? But I want to share that with you because it's so important to understand that your normal is not everyone else's normal. So especially when you're building a team, you've got to put in, like, actual training. You've got to put time and effort into this. You can't just hire someone and say, okay, go do the thing. you have to, like, dumb it down. Okay? And what you. What is common sense to you, I promise at one point in your life was not common sense. You're at the stage you're at because you've built upon a lot of different learning moments. And so you got to go back in time and talk to your younger self. And sometimes it feels like you're talking to a fifth grader. But if you could build out your standard operating procedures, your manual, like your. Your systems in your business, like it was designed for a fifth grader, think about how effective that would be. Step one, say this. And I'm talking, like, to the. To the, like the fifth grade level. If you just say for a sales. For a sales position, let's say, or an installation position. If the first thing is to, like, all right, install the transformer on the house. Well, you've already skipped, like, 36 steps. Because when they get to the house, how early do they need to arrive? Do they park in the driveway or do they park on the street? Do they park in front of the door or down the street? do they need to unbox the transformer first or do they just mount it to the wall? Right. It sounds like you're getting, like, elementary here. But that's kind of what's required when you want to build a team. You want to give everyone exact, responsibilities and exact expectations, exact KPIs. And then they know, and then they're empowered and they go, oh, wow, this. This is what winning feels like. I know I'm doing a good job instead of complaining. Like, man, it's like, when are they going to get it? Well, they don't know what they're supposed to get. Until you outline it for them. So that's my rant. it's just been on my mind, and, it's probably just because the chapstick thing, I'm like, dude, that is crazy. Like, I used to use lip gloss, and I thought that was normal. So, and maybe, you know, for some people now it is. You could use whatever you want.

Emory Allen provides lighting equipment specifically for the landscape lighting industry

All right, guys, hey, real quick. I want to give a shout out to Emory Allen. You know what sets Emory Allen apart? Well, bulbs aside, they believe that customer satisfaction should be the top priority. Priority always. Emery Allen goes out of their way to ensure lighting professionals have access to the best light sources built with the highest quality components suited specifically for the landscape lighting industry. If you want to get started with Emory Allen, don't waste your time. Don't go to their website, okay? Because you're just going to pay more. If you want the best deal, email tom gary allen. com and he will connect you with your, account manager. He'll get you set up with your contractor pricing. And what's nice is if you mentioned lighting for profits, you're going to get that discounted contractor pricing. Don't go to the website. Email tomg maryallen. com and get your account set up today.

Ryan: Michelle, welcome to the show. Thanks for taking time out

All right, guys, I think it's time. I'm excited to have Michelle on. Let's get the music going for her and let's get her coming on the show. If you're here live, if you have questions, let us know. Let's put her on the spot. Get her coming on the show. What is up? What is up?

Hi, Ryan.

Welcome, to the show. Michelle, good to see you.

Thank you so much. Good to see you.

Thanks for taking time out of your. Yeah, thanks for staying late. I appreciate it. I know you got kids, at home just waiting.

Yes. The story sounded very familiar. I love. I love the lippy gloss story. And it sounds like basically my last 23 years. So, yeah, I get it.

Do the boys call it lippy gloss?

No. Yeah, no, but they do, like, when I apply it.

Yeah. Well, now everyone knows I'm addicted to lippy gloss. Yeah, it's very cute, you know, but, that's not everyone's normal. I just thought my life was normal. I mean, like, I just thought, I look back at my life now, I'm like, man, there's so much stuff that was not normal. That was normal to me. And that's just how life is. Like, as a business owner, we expect so many things. People just to understand where we're coming from, it's like, well, they have a different path. Like, we all have a different life. We all have different perspectives and experiences. And so be being aware of that is huge. It's so empowering.

I am really surprised to hear you say that. I mean, I feel like you've either been, you know, doing some work or something, because it took me somebody telling me that. So, it's good to hear.

Oh, dude, my. I'm not even close to being done with the work.

None of us are.

Yeah.

And when you feel like you are, that's when you know you have a lot more to do. So now it's. It's constant and growing and learning and, you know, going back to some of those things, I. I'm a big believer in that. You know, we have built in, you know, therapists. I've told you this forever.

They.

They are flex therapists because you can use them for business, you can use them for marriage, you can use them for kids, whatever. So I'm huge on that. Luckily, I have a great mentor that's been in my life for 20 years, and everybody's norm is not our norm. And that's okay.

Exactly.

Michelle Mueller started Garden Light in 1999 after modeling for 10 years

Well, do a quick intro, of yourself, if you would. You've been on the show before, but, you know, we got some new listeners. So who is Michelle Mueller?

So Michelle Mueller is a mother of four and a wife, of course, but, I'm an eternal entrepreneur. I was, you know, one of those kids probably selling candy on the playground. So I learned how to, you know, sell myself, how to, you know, model. I modeled for 10 years and met, my husband, in 1999. We got together, and he asked me if I wanted to get into the landscape lighting business, which I knew nothing about. And I said, absolutely. It sounds fantastic. Let's do it. And he proposed to me and handed me a book, Janet Lennox Moyer's book. And I learned how to sell and learned about landscape lighting.

That's awesome. So a couple things. One, I forgot until you just reintroduced yourself, but every time I've ever heard you introduce yourself, which is probably seven or eight times, you always start with, I'm a mother of four, and I freaking love that.

Yeah.

A good reminder.

I'm very proud of my children. We've invested a lot of time into them, and they're the most meaningful thing in my life. They're my purpose.

That's so cool. Yeah. I don't know. I. If I'm being honest, when. If you say who are. Who is Ryan Lee? I don't first think, you know, I'm a father of four, so that's a good reminder. the other thing is. So you mentioned, you know, you started with Rayto, you guys got married, start Garden Light. That was. Was that in 1999?

Actually, he had started in 1996, so, yeah, so he had an interesting story, which I'm sure you'll get him on the show again to share with you one of these days. But, in 1996, he started Garden Light, and, actually was doing installations and only installations, not manufacturing or reselling or anything at that time. and then we. We got together in 1999, and.

Yes, okay. Yeah.

Where it all began for me.

He. He loves public speaking, so he's been asking for a long time to come.

Back on the show. Hey, you can now get him on your show. You've got leverage now, Ryan.

Yeah, that's awesome. well, you know, when I started buying Garden Light, it was. I have no idea, like, how big it was, but it felt a lot smaller, you know, like, there. There wasn't, There was a sales team, but there wasn't, like, a marketing department, engineering team that you guys have now. Like, it's kind of crazy to see the growth that you guys have experienced in. I don't know how long I've known you, but I would say at least maybe 10, no, probably longer. 15 years. it's. It's kind of awesome.

It is. It's, been my best learning experience. You know, it's like my college education. I. There's so many aspects of it. Just like when you're getting into landscape, lighting, you know, people, as you were just talking about, you know, creating those operations and functions and SOPs and all the different roles and everything in the company and. And, you know, tying this back to my. My therapist. That's how I actually met her was. She was the lead psychologist at usf, and ahead of all of the school. And we, actually hired her here at Garden Light to support us and help us with organizational charts, job functions, an employee manual. When we first started the company, it was just Rayto and I, and, I just thought it'd be a great adventure. and I also really thought it was interesting, you know, because I went out on a couple demos with him. He was doing the installs and demos back then, and I was like, oh, my God. Like, I fell in love with it. and Renee came in. I, was previously working as an Ad director for a golf magazine. And Renee Morris, who is still with us today. She's been with us for 23 years. came over with us. So it's been, it's been a great learning opportunity. it's been, you know, a lot of good hard lessons and good lessons. And I'm very proud of the company that everybody who has committed here has built with us. So, yes, it's been, it's been a great opportunity to really exercise and grow.

Tom Garber is transitioning from lighting design to landscape lighting

Well, you guys have been, ah, super. I don't know what the right word is. Giving. there's a better word, but I, My vocabulary is terrible. You guys are super gracious. You're very giving. We've put on two landscape lighting lives now in Tampa at your house. We invite, you know, 50 people over to your house, we go do the, the tour. And I think, people are surprised when they come to the tour. I'm not sure what they're expecting and I can't remember what, what my surprise was at the time, but people are surprised on a couple things. They're like, wow, the culture there is amazing. Like, you can tell there's like this feeling in the air. People are just great. Like, everyone's got a good attitude there. Like, it's not like, oh my gosh, I gotta go to work again. So the culture is amazing. And then I think they're surprised too, that like, wow, like some of this stuff is like handmade. It's not, it's not like just like a fixture that like gets 3D printed and just appears out of nowhere is like, wow. You see people assembling fixtures like a Rolex factory, you know, that's pretty cool.

It is, it's dynamic and it allows us, you know, me now kind of transitioning more with the lighting design side of things and actually getting out there and doing some large scale projects. It allows me the confidence to go out there and do what I need to do. Because I know I can come back here to my team and they'll whip anything together for me, like, literally. So if we need a housing that is 2 inches shorter, or if I need, you know, a mini spotlight to be turned into a down light and potted and sealed, I can do it. If I need more power, I have, you know, this team that provides tremendous flexibility. so I'm able to go out and get the job done, do anything that I want to do for any project now.

That's cool. Tom Garber says hi. What's up, Tom? Garber.

Hi.

You guys are constantly innovating. Maybe talk a little bit about some of the new things you're doing

So let's talk about that because, I feel like you guys are constantly innovating. I know when I first, when I was using garden light, originally it was back in the halogen days. And then LED came out, we went and actually tried a bunch of different manufacturers with led and it was like, hey, we're, we're gonna really do our research here. We're not going to be the first to market, but we're gonna really come out with something good. now it's like you guys have all these little niche fixtures, and that's kind of one of the things I love about integrated is like, you got all these little tiny fixtures that you can do so many things with. you've got now your new products. You're calling it the five zero and you got dmx. Maybe talk a little bit about some of the new things you're doing and why you're doing them.

Yes. So obviously to be competitive in the space, when color changing came out, we definitely, you know, lost some market share for that. So developing our own technology is always a priority for us. It gives us the control on quality. We can stake our name upon it. Also, because people rely on us for our products, we have to be very careful introducing new things to the market. So we need to know that we can have the faith and the trust in it. So it's taken a little longer than we've all wanted, but, now it's kind of like, pow. We've come out with a lot of great products. We have the rgbw, which is the DMX solution. It's extremely high powered. It's very, it's super, super powerful. So if you're wanting to illuminate a commercial space, the C3s give us up to 30 watts, which that's out of a bullet spotlight. It's a triple light engine. That's like insane. So 30 watts out of your typical bullet light, where, you know, we have people that bring in fixtures that are needing to be repaired and they're like this big, you know, to get that much power. So it's really, really impressive technology. what's been fun is learning. I love to learn. And now, you know, we're learning about decoders and routers and, all the things that you need to control these things. So I had a little bit of education on that. You know, I just want to go sell it, but, it's been fun. And then the RGBW 5.0 is game changing because of the price and the quality, honestly there's, you know, of course it's my product but I'd put it up against any other manufacturer. It's going to deliver amazing, amazing output. And the longevity. It's been tested, we've been working on it for years so we're really, really proud of it. And we came in to disrupt the market with it. So it's priced very, very effectively. We have up lights for those and we also have the up down lights and then we also have kind of like a cool pagoda for people that party and things like that. So it's, it's limited on the fixtures but it's what it can do and it's all app based so it's super easy to control. You can set your scenes. It's kind of like a, ah, you know, a very simplified version of color changing which people really like.

Yeah, very cool.

And we have rev of course, which that's also another great thing. That's the variant light output fixture. So that is a light engine and a driver on board and it's literally, you know, one light engine and you can move them in and out. They 3 watt, 5 watt, 7 watts. So super functional. it's a great fixture at a great price. It also has our lock and load technology which, you know, we sold millions for anybody that's been doing business with us for over, you know, 15 years. We sold millions of the F777s and the F7 150s and that's that same top that just basically locks and it also allows for servicing the lens in the field.

I do think it's cool. I mean I haven't used it, obviously it's new but I've seen it and it's got the benefits of integrated with heat sink and all that. But then, you know, if you, if the tree grows and you want a brighter light or you want to switch it out and make it dimmer, then you can just pop that engine out. so it's, it's more what I call modular. I'm not sure what you guys call it but it's more modular than integrated. But it still gives you the benefits of integrated and then you're not throwing away fixtures and things like that, which is what a lot of people don't like about integrated. So yeah, it's great.

Correct. and we're going to be coming out with some more stuff too. So it's just that the team's been doing a great job. I laughed the other day because Alex came in on Rollerblades, and I just thought, oh, my God, I got to get a video of you on rollerblades running, you know, going through the warehouse and stuff. So it was great. I don't know if we posted it, but it was. It was great.

Whatever it takes to come up with new, ideas, new technology.

You also do landscape lighting design and installation

all right, so I want to talk about your business that you also do, lighting design and installation. Because I think it's awesome. I mean, you're. You've got garden light built up to where you're, you know, like, you know, you. You do things at Garden Light, but you're like, no, I want to. I want to get out in the field. I want to be out with the people. why did you start your design and installation business?

Honestly, it was curiosity. I am really a go getter. I like to exercise. I do yoga. I work out. I'm, you know, super active. I was that mom. I am that mom that you were describing. Like, you know, works all day, drops all the kids off for schools, but I have to have something for me. And, landscape lighting, you know, obviously being on the sales side and then the operations, you know, working in a business and creating job descriptions and all that stuff. Did all that. Did, you know, a lot of training for other entrepreneurs that wanted to get into the business. And I was just really, really curious. I may have shared this last time when I was on, but Mary Peterson, from Northwest Outdoor Lighting, is a dear friend of ours and also the godmother for our children. she said, michelle, I didn't know how to sell it till I knew how to install it. And that just kind of, like, really resonated with me. and then I got out there and started, you know, doing some installations and fell in love with it. I realized that the power, especially for a woman. I always encourage any women that I'm mentoring to, you know, grab their. Where's my little tool? you know, grab their splicers. You know, get out there. You know, take the drum connectors, move the lights around, lay the cables. You know, the more that you're doing that, you're. It's so impressive because guys are like, oh, my God, like, this chick's, like, a badass. Yeah, so I like to be a badass. Honestly.

So you are a badass.

It all kind of. It just kind of evolved, and I really fell in love with it. So just a couple people asking me if I could do their landscape lighting, and then I started trying it. Like, I didn't design before and I was like, really nervous about it. and I did a couple of them with our installers that were local and I was super grateful that they even gave me that opportunity. And I learned a lot. But I'm going to go back to the fact that the equipment, I mean not having equipment that I could have confidence in and do like the smaller housings really provided a, ah, great opportunity to create and do those cool things that you know, when you're talking to people about landscape, lighting and focal points and revealing certain areas and creating moments, you know, that's really what design is all about. So that for me got me.

Very cool. Yeah, it's it's very addicting. You know, I mean I, look at other industries. I'm like when I sold my lighting business, I was like trying to figure out what do I want to do with my life? And I was, you know, looking at different things, like, okay, what's the fastest way to make money? What's more rewarding? What do I really want in life? All this stuff. But lighting is so rewarding because obviously you can make money financially, but it's that moment of like turning it on and seeing your creation and like, holy cow, like it looks like a different planet. Like this is now a five star resort, you know, and it was nothing at night. It was complete darkness. And I did that. Like that's, there's something about that that it's like it wants you coming back and like, I want to see. I want to do that again tomorrow night.

Yeah. Yes.

Well, that's very cool.

How much of your business is design versus is it everything

So how much your design of your business is design versus or is it everything? Like you go and design it and then you sell it and then you install it?

so currently I'm doing all of it, you know, so I do the design aspect. So that again is rolling into that entrepreneurial role where there are those challenges like you were talking about earlier. You're not going to be good at everything. so you definitely, you know, once you learn design, there's so many aspects. It's almost like how do you eat an elephant, right? Like, okay, I need to know how to design, I need to know how to install. You need to know how to troubleshoot and service in case something does go wrong.

Now we're going to talk about how to ask people for money

Now we're going to talk about how to ask people for money. And you're not talking about a little bit of money, you're talking about a lot of money. And when we, when I was backstage, I shared a quick story with You, you know, we were. I met this client. I'll keep him anonymous, but my girlfriend. I was golfing with the kids when we were in the Bahamas for our son's 18th birthday. And, I took the boys golfing, and I came back, and she was sitting at the $5,000 tables, which is a great place to meet people for lighting, by the way.

Yes.

And, so she happened to exchange numbers with this guy. And I walk up, and so he's like, who's this? He's got his dog with him. And, she says, this is my friend Michelle. He's buying two houses here in Florida, moving his factory to Florida. she does landscape lighting. And so, like, six months later, I got a phone call, and I go to his house, and he's like, I. I want it all. And I'm like, okay, well, can I have a budget? And he's like, just. Just get it done. So I write everything up, like, right then I came up with the design. I mean, I had a few core drills in there. I didn't feel. Feel like I took advantage. I just wanted to really. I'm, like, okay, can you give me a range? He didn't give me anything. So we were at about 60,000 installed. And that's the front and the back. And he's on the water. So, probably roughly, you know, let's say 100, 100 to 150 lights. And, I did that for him over, you know, a weekend, actually. We got it installed. This is crazy. He wanted it the next day, and we did it. I came back to the factory, I wrote it up, I got the check. I, like, literally go back and I installed it all weekend with my team. Installed it. He's looking at me like, this girl's crazy. Like, 100. So I'm like, yeah, that's. That's true. I am. Got it done. And he's like, well, I need, like, 30 more lights. So we did 30 more lights for the driveway. We did X lights. We did V3s. Everything's, you know, non corrosive. And by the way, still running. Thank you. Still running through two hurricanes. And I got messages from him like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe this stuff is still actually going. But, so sold that for him, and, he fell in love with it. So I get a call, like, six months later, and this is the story that I was telling you when we were backstage, and he. I go to his new house. So the new house is twice the Size, and it's all concrete and needed a ton of core drills. So I knew it was going to be expensive because I love architectural lighting. And he's flashy. He likes. He likes lighting. So, he basically told me, like, your budget's 100. Don't ask me. And so I walked out and I was like, oh, awesome. Like, I got my first big hundred thousand dollars job. Right. But I'm, in the back of my mind going, okay, this is $200,000 worth of lighting. If that was 80, this is going to be 160 at least.

So he tells you 100K. Normally you're like, heck, yeah, this is awesome.

Yeah.

Immediately you're like, wait, it's going to be double that. Did you tell him that?

No, I just told him, okay, I won't. I'm going to do my best because I'm servicing my customer, right? I'm, like, wanting to make him happy. I wanting to do everything right, but the numbers don't add up. So I come back and luckily I did the design, like, right when I walked out there. That's one thing that's really easy for me. that's something that I just pick up very quickly. Maybe it's when I know that, in a transaction are going to be making money. I know the equipment so well. I know what it can do. I've mentored other people to do it. But I just literally. So I designed the whole thing. actually, I did the back of it first, which was the terrace, and the, the lower terrace and the upper terrace. And I think we had like 65 mini well lights and, you know, halos up on the second story and crazy. So that was 50,000. So I was like, I better get a hold of him quickly and go back to the house. Went back to the house. I designed everything, like, for everything that was possible. But I broke it into eight zones and I priced everything out. Knowing that just the core drills for the upper and lower deck were going to be about 56,000. I priced everything out. And I called him and I said, can we get together? because I would like to review the landscape lighting design and see what's most important to you. I know you gave me a budget of $100,000.

One of my largest projects was for a dealer friend. And he let us host dealer congress at his house

I want to respect that. and he made a meeting with me, and I had everything lined up. I had zone one. So I had back, landscape left, back, landscape right, center island, three islands that were flanking the pool, the front, the bamboo allay that aligned the side fence. I had Everything. The pathway down to the dock. and I said, here's this. This is the pathway down to the dock. And so I'm walking him through everything so he can understand that the numbers don't add up. So I basically said, you. Let's decide what's not. What's least important to you. Out of everything that I've shown you here, and what your most.

Your greatest priorities, what was the total?

like, 160.

Okay, so you're 60,000 over. And I like what you just said. You're like, all right, what's least important to you?

Yeah. And he kind of flipped out a little bit. Like, he's like, 160. Like, are you crazy? And I was like, you know, we can always come back. We can always add. And he just. He wasn't budging on his number of 100. I'm not budging on my number of 160. 60. I'm like, what, What? Where are we going to meet? In the middle here. Because I want to take care of you. But I also, you know, I'm selling on value, obviously. I'm. I'm. He knows the product. He's already experienced me. He knows the work I do. And he. So he went. He said, just give it all to me. And he let us host dealer congress at his house.

That's awesome.

So I'm really grateful for that. But he's a good friend of ours, and, it was one of my largest projects.

Well, it's.

Greg Matthews: It was a challenging install. It was really, really a challenging project

Thanks for sharing a couple takeaways. I want to kind of revisit. Number one is a lot of times we think we make assumptions that we already did work for someone. So it's just going to be easy. Like, they already. Trust me. I can. I can just do whatever I want. And that's not necessarily always true. I mean, obviously it's helpful and there's a relationship there, but if you don't go, if you. I. I don't know what would have happened. But I think if you would have just given him a quote for 160 without zoning it out, that flip out might have been a, flip out, like, beyond. And you might not have gotten anything. You know, So I think the strategy that you did was awesome, because it's like, hey, you don't have to. We can do a hundred. You know, you're just gonna. Which zones do you want to take out? You're. You're not. You're still giving him what he wants.

Yeah.

You're showing him what he wants and giving him what he needs. And that's. That's beautiful about it, is, like, our customers, they don't know they can be billionaires. They can be whatever. They don't understand the value of lighting. They don't know why it needs 52 lights. Like, they think it needs four, you know? And so we as professionals have to step up and be that educator, be that advisor, the helper, the guide that they. That they really need. So, that's pretty cool.

It's fun. you know, it was a lot of difficult material, that we were working with. So that was a learning experience. when we. I'm just like, okay, we're going to do 60 core drills. You know, we do them all the time, never had a problem. And we get out there to install everything. And, you know, this. The tiles, like, brittle and cracking, and it's just like, we literally spent a whole weekend. So I'm like, googling diamond bits and this. And then we realized, so it had a floating deck, too, by the way, which I'm thinking, okay, this is going to be a breeze, because there's really no angle grinder needed. You know, we could lift the tiles and move them, but they. They were just. It was really, really a challenging install. so every project's different.

We've gone international. Neil Parslow says hi. What's up, Neil?

Hey, Neil.

That's cool. Greg Matthews. What's up? What's up? Greg says hi. He says the first question to ask. Oh. Is, what's my credit score? Well, that's what you asked the client. Greg, if you're selling me lights, mine's like 500.

Yeah, I don't really ask my clients that. well, I see their Kona Sag in the driveway. Kind of tells me what it is, Right? Yeah. When they've got, like, Bentley, you know, Kona Sag, they've got a McLaren. I'm like, okay. They can afford landscape lighting.

There's a lot. There's a lot that I admire about you, Michelle. One of them is that, you have courage bigger than most. Right. Like, I'm sure there's got to be some fear in there somewhere. I don't know. I have fear every day, but I'm just like, okay, I got to overcome that. But, like, most people aren't willing to do that. If someone tells them $100,000 budget, they're going to keep it at 100. You know, they're. They're afraid they're going to lose that deal and whatever. And this is just one example. But you. You're constantly exercising courage. You guys try things at Garden Light all the time. You try things with your own business. You're always willing to put yourself out there. How do you. What is the key to having greater courage than fear?

Knowledge.

Why do you say that?

The more you know, the braver you are. Okay, I know. Braver's a word. The more brave you are. The more you know the br. The more brave you are. you know, I've had many times throughout my career where I haven't been myself, where I haven't felt my flow. And that's something that I constantly work on internally and.

Gaineez: I'm competitive, but I'm also compassionate and empathetic

And, you know, with team. My team that I trust and respect. I also treasure my time. I don't have a lot of time, so when I need to do something and get something done, I have to have the courage. So it's kind of like, all right, you can kind of have a little bit of fear right now and not get the job done, or you can step up to the plate, fight it, and make it happen. And I, always win when I do that. So I have that winning mentality where I'm not going to lose, like, no matter what. And it's not a, Although my Neo came back very competitive, I am competitive, but I'm also a very compassionate and empathetic person. So my need to compete is not necessarily directed at other people. It's more for myself.

Yeah, well, I honestly wish more people would. Would be like that, because the game is not competing against others. It is with yourself. If you can level up every day against yourself, you're just going to be that much better, regardless of someone else's success. That has nothing to do with yours, you know, so that's a. That's a great attribute to have. For real.

Thank you.

I. Yeah, I like the way you broke it up. I like the zones. Because, you know, like, when it comes to design, there's no reason to sacrifice. Like, well, he said 100, so I'm just gonna, like, do the whole thing, but not as good. So you stuck your guns on the design. It's like, no, it needs 56 lights.

Here.

It's gonna get 56 lights. and then if he wants to take away zones, he can. And you're still giving the client what they want. They told you 100. They can stick to 100 if they want. If they want to leave the dock dark, or if they want to leave the back landscaping dark or whatever it is. So that's Way cool.

Yeah, I'm pretty much a design snob. When I make my decision on the design, I don't want to give that design up. I don't want to give that up. But I also want to make my customers happy and respect them. So I always find that by giving them the choice, letting them make the decision that's best for themselves without compromising my price, I've gotten a lot better about that. I have another residential client that I work with, and he's very successful. He's German. I'm married to a Swiss guy for 25 years. His wife's American. They've been married 25 years. We have a lot of commonalities. But he wants to negotiate with me very hard. And I've gotten to the point where, like, I give you incredible service. I've done great things by you. and he agrees, and I can't do that. You know, I first would do it go, like, give somebody 10%. 10% of $30,000 is $3,000. That's my profit chewed up. So, you know, I'm very careful on discounting, and today I really don't find the need that I have to do that. I did it a lot before because I was intimidated, right? I was like, okay, I just asked for $40,000, but that was crazy, right? But m. That if I gave him 10% off, that's. That's four grand out of my pocket, and I don't want to do that.

Well, it goes back to why you said your. Your courage is greater than your fear is knowledge, not just knowledge. In, like, how do these fixtures work? What's the design going to look like? But it's knowledge of, like, knowing that these people, they, dude, they just want to negotiate. I just want to negotiate, too. He doesn't have to save $3,000 to do this deal. It just feels good. It just feels like he's winning. So if you can find other ways in the negotiation process to make them feel like they're winning, then that's fine, you know, because they. They have money. They have $500,000 cars. So it's not that they can't afford it. It's just. That's just who they are. So if you understand that process and you can, you know, be. Gain that knowledge on that. Actually, they. They don't really want to. Like, if. If you just caved the very first time, they're like, hey, how about if you just do it for $10,000 less? And you said yes, they'd be like, were you gonna rip me off?

Geez.

You know, like, they want to know that they got you as low as you can. And if as low as you can is what you started with, then you're good to go. As long as you can stand firm in that, that's cool.

I'm, not good at negotiating. I don't like playing games like that. So for me, I could probably stand to read a few books on it because. But I don't do it anymore. I just, I.

That's the best thing to do.

Very good care of my clients, and I show them a lot of respect, and we have great product that I can have confidence in. Even, like I said, through two hurricanes. I mean, I. My phone. So many people were calling Rayto and I, and they couldn't believe it. Like, literally. Ryan, you wouldn't believe Tampa.

It's all about having really good products, and partnering with your manufacturer

I mean, we were underwater for the first hurricane. And, you know, I'm getting videos of our fixtures. They're the only thing shining, like the storms going, the water, the waves are crashing, and people are like, I cannot believe this stuff. So I will give that a caveat and say that those light engines probably do need to be changed, but if it's not a submersible and potted and sealed fixture, but they are still working. So, you know, you. It's all about having really good products, and I think partnering, you know, with your manufacturer, having those relationships and that dialogue. I. I get the best of. Of everything here, and I have the confidence and flexibility that I need to be successful.

If you could. I, know you sent me over the designs, but just talk through, when you're doing a project, when you're saying, oh, I know what's going to go where, talk through how you're putting it together, what pictures you're taking, and then how you're planning on coming back and how do you present that design to a client?

When I come back sometime, it's like a tornado, because I'm like, you got product, you got wire, you've got your tools, you just lay it all out. I lay everything up. But honestly, this particular house, has a. Like a probably 150 foot small pathway from the center of the back island, which is the pool, down to the water. And so that was kind of like a visual that I knew right away. Okay, I want to do staggering, cross lights that shoot down on the path, kind of just like this cool path, just inviting us out to the water from. Especially, like, if he's up in the terrace, looking down towards the water. So I start with, okay, what, what's my main focal point? That really was, like, strong for me. I typically don't use a ton of fixtures. Like I always. Back in the day, we'd always tell everybody, use FMWs, BABS. Like, if you don't know what you're doing with landscape lighting, use 4 watt 40 degree. Keep it simple. As you learn, you'll figure out where you could have made those changes and chosen a, ah, narrower beam or a wider beam. But, you know, obviously you start with your basics. I tell our clients that they're just getting out because it can be overwhelming. You know, start with like three or four fixtures. Know your cost on them, know what you need to sell them for to be successful. and they'll do everything you need them to do, you know, and shroud them, you know, make sure they have louvers and all those kind of things. That's like icing on the cake. When you start talking like that with your client, they understand that you have a whole different understanding and it is important. you know, so accessories for your fixtures are very important to make sure that you're not, you know, glare bombing in your client's face and things like that. So just having the equipment and knowing, knowing basic design principles.

You and I went to Illy together for our first time

Let's, let's talk about that. So you and I, we went to Illy. Was that. That was both our first time going, right? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. And we didn't know each other. I didn't know you were going. I don't think you knew I was going. We're like, what, you're coming? That's awesome. So, Illy was cool. that was. That was my first time going there. I learned quite a bit. You, was it before or after that that you partnered up with Jan on Learn Nightlight?

Before.

I thought it was before. Okay.

Yeah.

So, talk.

Learn Nightlight is an online program that helps people get educated on landscape lighting

Let's talk about Learn Nightlight because that's an online program that people can do to get educated on design.

Yes.

What is it? Why did you guys decide to do this?

So when I met Jan, obviously, I read her book in 1999. and then I reached out to her in 2015 and just told her that she was like the first book I had read about landscape lighting and that I've been admiring her for almost, you know, a decade, almost two decades. And I wanted to meet her. So she loved that. And she's like, okay, I'm coming to Tampa. I want to meet you too. So we just Clicked and she flew in. we had an awesome weekend. She spent time here at Garden Light with us, and then when she was flying back, I think she may have. I don't know if she came in for, like, our Dealer Congress. The first time I met her, I think it was. So she was one of our keynote speakers for Dealer Congress and stayed at my house. And, I just thought that was the greatest thing in the world. Like, having her teaching landscape lighting for me was like, wow, this is the best experience that I could ever have, for our partners and everybody that joined us for that. So just had a great weekend. she left very inspired, and she kind of broke out all of the topics, which are 20 sessions. It's available on the IES. but I'll get into that. But, she. She kind of, you know, anybody that's ever met Jan. She's an intellect and she's just incredible at, communicating landscape lighting and all its functions. I've never seen anybody do that like that.

So I was like, well, how did you guys come up with the idea? I'm still amazed at her book. I'm like, yeah, that. It doesn't even make sense how that that's possible. But it's a. It's kind of a miracle. But still, how did you come up with the idea to, create these lessons and the videos and all this stuff? And, like, what was the plan?

So we talked after she landed and she was like, I want to do this with you. And I think that you, out of anybody that I know, can get this done. And so I was like, okay, what are we doing? And so this is when we started having dialogue, like, okay, we're going to film, learn Nightlight. And, it's going to be 20 sessions on critical topics of landscape lighting. And, we scheduled everything out and got together and we filmed the first 10, filmed, the next 10. And I had a great editor, because of my modeling background, obviously did that for 10 years. So I still have a lot of good contacts with that. And, we put everything together kind of like in a vault, and then just, created quizzes together. So Jan and I were like, hand in hand, probably for two years working on this project to get it to the standard that the IES needed. Because obviously you don't get CEU credits and all those things if, it's not approved. And then also you have to create quizzes. There has to be something that the learner is participating in some way. So it, it just kind of evolved on its own. And I'm really grateful that I did. And one of my promises to her, was that I would always make sure that it got into the right hands. So I'm really, really proud of the fact that it is available through the IES and they did partner with us and they saw value in the course. so I basically got it to where we needed it together.

With Jan, it's, it's phenomenal. It's crazy. And I think that most people don't know about it. Like, we need, we need to tell people about it because you could just go do it online. Yeah, like I, I haven't even done it yet. Like, why haven't I done this? Is it. Does it feel like you're going through the book? Like, is it like.

It's more interactive show?

She.

So the videos are 10 minutes to 15 minutes. They're short. Jan, when I mean she literally read pages, I get like, I was just, my mind was blown because she's like, oh, I don't really, I haven't been on camera before. I did all the introductions for her, wrote out the introductions, but she had the content was, you know, how much content was at, illy for each one of the topics.

So it was basically like that. And just sitting down with her, you know, we would film for eight hours and she would recite this content and knew like, if one word was missing or something. And I'm like, oh my God, we're on page 1000. And you knew that something was off. So just her mindset and working with her really has taught me a lot, in terms of design and confidence and having that expertise, you know, by my side. I delve into it all the time and I tell you, my prices for landscape lighting and my abilities went like this the day I met her. Because the knowledge grew and the confidence grew and I'm really grateful that she allowed me the opportunity to learn with her.

Yeah, that's killer. I, I mean it's cool that the IES got behind it and you know, just looking at the website, if you go to learn nightlight. com it'll take you to the IES website that has it hosted. but you know, in the landscape lighting world, there's not a lot of connection to IES and like people, people don't really know about it and stuff like that, but it's, that's a big deal. So if you guys want to go get, go through it, you can go to learn Night lighting. No, learn nightlight. com.

Yeah. And there's two courses, so you'll go on the landing page. And I believe the courses are, $350 for each course or you get it for like 600 if you're an IES member. And if you're not, it's like 700. But very well worth it. I've gotten tons of feedback. People love listening to it. There's music to it. It's very interactive. and she just has this lyrical tone about her when she's teaching landscape lighting and it just rolls off her tongue and it's. She made it very, very interesting. She brought in a lot of Latin terms and you learn about plant material and trees. And when you start really seeing how much knowledge she has on all these things, it's really, really interesting.

Your knowledge has increased, which led to increasing confidence

Very cool. Well, your knowledge has increased, which led to increasing confidence, which helped your, your bravery and your courage. So that's awesome.

And my purpose and my passion is I'm following it.

I, love it.

And when you do that, you can't, you know, you can't lose.

You can't lose. Yeah, I love that.

We're also coming out with a new lighting design software

I know we're closing because it's 6:00, but we're also coming out with a new lighting design software. So stay tuned.

Nice. And what's that going to be?

That is a full blown lighting design software. Super cutting edge. and it's basically all of our products. You can drag and drop them and it's got night mode and day mode. It also has a invoicing solution, so it provides partners who are know not using any sort of invoicing tool. it's coming. I'll hopefully have a preview for you soon, but we've been working on it for the year here, so we are waiting with great anticipation.

Love it. Good to know. it'll happen when it happens. So way to tease us on that. Maybe we'll get a Christmas gift or a New Year's gift. that was awesome.

Thanks for coming on, Michelle. Did we, did we leave anything else out? I thank you for having me

Thanks for coming on, Michelle. Did we, did we leave anything else out?

I thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

Yeah. I feel like we accomplished a lot, we got through a lot. So as always, thanks for coming on. Thanks for being such a good person. You, your family has always been super gracious to me, the lighting community, giving back in lots of different ways. So I appreciate our relationship. Thanks for coming on the show and I hope you have a great evening.

Thank you so much. You too. Thank you again for having me.

Heck yeah.

All right. Now the hard part. Implement. Do it all. Go. Uh, right, everyone have an awesome week

All right. Guys. Now the hard part. Go. Implement.

Do it all.

right, everyone have an awesome week. We'll see you later.