Lighting for Profits - Episode 182

This week on the podcast we welcome, Kenny Kaufman, who began his landscape lighting career in 2004 as an installer and opened his first OLP location in 2007 at age 23. Since then, he's built a network of 10 OLP franchises, 3 Conserva Irrigation franchises, a Mosquito Squad franchise, and consulted at Redwoods Landscape Lighting, a game-changing lighting manufacturing business.

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To start and grow a successful landscape lighting business, today's your day

Welcome to Lighting for Profits. All light. All light. All light. Powered by Emory Allen. Get rid of your excuses. Your number one source for all things landscape lighting. That's where the magic can happen. You can really scale a business.

We really had to show up for.

Each other from lighting design, install sales, and marketing.

You're a scaredy cat salesman, Kurt. We discussed everything you need to know.

To start and grow a successful landscape lighting business.

What do you think a hippo has to do with your business, Ryan?

Usually it's some weird childhood thing. Some bully kicks your butt.

I think the key factor here is trust.

Here is your host, Ryan Lee. Oh, Light. All light. All light. It's gonna be an epic show. So excited. One of my favorite days of the week. And, we got an awesome show lined up for you. Listen, if you're here to start or grow a landscape lighting business, today's your day. Today is your day. We're going to help you level up faster than ever. We're here to educate and motivate, to help you dominate. And you're not going to want to miss out on today's episode. We're going to jump right into it, too. I mean, I've got very few things to say. And then we got the one, the only, Mr. Kenny Kaufman with outdoor lighting perspectives in the house. Literally in the house, in the studio. And, it's kind of fun because most of my guests are remote, but, you know, Kenny, you guys are going to see he does things different than most, and he's like, all right, well, what date can I come over? When are we recording? I'm like, wait, what? I'm like, set up for my wife in the studio here and maybe some friends every once in a while. And, I love it. So I'm fired up. This is going to be a conversation that's going to be listened to over and over and over.

Three weeks out from Light it Up Expo, get your tickets now

So, guys, before we have Kenny on real quick, we are. We are three weeks out from Light it Up Expo, and I'm telling you right now, we've finalized the lineup and we're releasing the speakers and stuff like that. The breakouts, the vendors. I cannot believe the support that we have from the lighting community. It is insane when you see who's going to be there and who's speaking and who. I, mean, it's. It's wild. I'm just so extremely grateful. But I want to make sure that you guys know we opened up Thursday. This is a Bonus Day. Thursday, February 27, the light it Up Expo. All the training, all the sessions are Friday and Saturday. So February 28, March 1. But come in early because Thursday you can dedicate that whole day to vendors. So from 11 to three on Thursday and five to seven during five to seven there's going to be a cash bar that you can get drunk and talk to vendors. But 11 to 3 we have lunch included. So this is. You don't have. Even if you already got your ticket, come early because it's. You don't have to pay any more. Lunch is included, the vendor hall is included. And I'm telling you, like Kenny's going to be there. There's going to be a lot of opportunity to level up your business. I want to see you there. Get your ticket right now. Light itup expo. com and it's going to be a great show. So I want to see you guys there. It's in Orlando. It's in three weeks. Don't wait any longer. We want to see you there. Light it up expo. com. oh, let's see. Where are the buttons? Oh. What sets Emory Allen apart? Well, bulbs aside, they believe customer satisfaction should be the top priority. Always. Emory Allen goes out of their way to ensure lighting professionals have access to the best light sources built with the highest quality components suited specifically for the landscape lighting industry. At the end of the day, it's what's on the inside that counts. So take advantage of Emory Allen's world class customer service. Get 10% off your first order. Here's what you need to do. Guys. Don't waste your time going to the website. Why would you do that? All you have to do is email tom g.ryan. com and he will hook you up with that discounted contractor pricing. You're going to get that. All you got to do is mention that you heard about them at Lighting for Profits. Mentioned that we're friends, Ryan Lee. And he's going to get you that discounted contractor pricing. So email tom gmarylen. com and see what you've been missing. They got single source. I mean you guys got to just check that stuff out. And I'm just so grateful. Emory Allen's actually the platinum sponsor for us at Light it Up Expo. So get your tickets now guys. If you have questions, reach out. Hope to see you there.

Kenny Kaufman is the owner of a large landscape lighting company

All right, so guys, it's time. I mean, normally I'm like, you know what, I got something on my mind, which I've got like 10,000 things on my mind. But what we're going to do today is we're Going to jump right in the conversation because Kenny was nice enough to fly all the way from Augusta, Georgia. We're the number one landscape lighting show in Augusta, Georgia, now, which. Thanks for doing that, Kenny. it's time to get our guests coming on, because we're got. We got a lot to talk about. Let me know if you're live, if you have questions, if you want to be part of this conversation, let's hear it. Welcome to the show, Mr. Kenny Kaufman. What is up? Oh, I did.

There we go. Now we got the mic on. Yes. I'm excited to be here, man. Really appreciate you having me on the podcast.

Well, it wouldn't be a normal episode if I didn't screw up at least one or two times. So we got that. Got that out of the way.

We're done with it.

Well, dude, so excited. in fact, you came in yesterday, and this is kind of a unique experience because, you know, I. I pretty much know all of our podcast guests. You know, met them at events or, you know, community things or something like that. But, that was kind of fun because I think we got to, spend some time together, and, I think it kind of developed the conversation that we're going to have right now.

Yeah, I definitely think so.

So. Well, do me a favor, just real quick, for those that don't know you, you know, you and I, we've had phone conversations, I'd say, over the last few years, kind of on and off. not regularly, by any means, but we've gotten to know each other, a lot more in the last six months. But those that don't know you, who is Kenny Kaufman, and, what the heck are we doing together here?

Yeah, yeah, my name's Kenny Kaufman. I've been, in landscape lighting for 20 years. This year, as a matter of fact, I started as a installer. And. And today I own, a very large landscape lighting company. We have four different. 10 total outdoor lighting Perspectives, franchises. I hate calling it a franchise because it kind of has that negative connotation that we're, you know, those guys aren't business owners. We'll call them Outdoor Lighting Perspectives business owners, 10, different locations. We operate as four separate businesses. Columbia, South Carolina. Charleston, South Carolina. And we have Orlando, Florida. And, our newest store is West Palm Beach, Florida. And things are going really well.

That's awesome, man.

You started as a technician and have been married for 20 years

So 20 years. You started as a technician. Are you sure? I thought you had, like, a rich uncle that was like, hey, Kenny, I'm Rich and I got extra money.

No.

Do you want, do you want some money?

Nothing like that. No. No. I I've been married 20 years to my awesome wife Melissa Kaufman. she was the first good decision I made. Made a few more since then, which is good. But but you know, having that motivation of having a wife early on and a family just take care of and it really pushed me to want to do bigger things.

At what point did you decide that you wanted to be a business owner

So at what point did you decide that, you know, you, you wanted to be a business owner?

You know, that's a great question. I never had that, that dream of wanting to be a business owner. That dream was really presented to me and you know, it gave me that, that fire to go. Oh, maybe I can, I can do this. I honestly, you know, didn't know what I wanted to do. I just enjoyed landscape lighting from the start. Two thousand four. I started as an installer with this guy named Pat Otis. He owns an Outdoor Lighting Perspectives, franchise in Augusta, Georgia. And I started as an installer just helping him, dig, dig ditches and, and I grew to love the business. Working under him was fantastic. That man is, is something else. He, he might be a hundred years old today. Nobody really knows because he, he he just cranks out work. He has a relentless work ethic and working under him was great. It kind of was where I got to see what it took to own a company and be able to produce at that level. He still does it today. Landscape, Lighting, in Augusta, Georgia owns a really impressive company.

Wait a minute. Because I think a lot of people, one of their biggest fears is I'm going to train my competition. I'm not going to take this guy with me to Light It Up Expo because it's going to inspire him to do his own business. You're telling me that's what happened with you? And you guys are still friends or you guys frenemies or what's going on?

No, I don't work in Augusta, so no competition there or anything like that. I worked under him as a, as an employee of Outdoor Lighting Perspectives first and, and he presented me with the opportunity of being an owner. the opportunity to buy Columbia, South Carolina. That's a funny story too. Is you know, I really didn't know landscape lighting out of, outside of Outdoor Lighting Perspectives. And my wife and I, we had 12,000 total dollars. That was our entire life savings. I was 23 years old. I drove up to Charlotte, north, Carolina, met with the president, the brand president of Outdoor Lighting Perspectives. His name's Rich Young, great guy. And, and pleaded my case with a, with a printed out job, I mean, business model, and, and begged him to let me, buy the company. He took a chance on me and at the end of the conversation, I told him, I'm going to be the largest outdoor lighting Prospectus franchisee one day. And he's looked at me like, yeah, sure, you know. And, and three years ago, I became the largest outdoor lighting Prospectus franchise. So.

Boom. Yeah. Ah, that is freaking awesome, man. You know, it's funny because I think a lot of people would probably say I'm going to be the best. I'm going to be like. But here we are. Like, you actually, you accomplished what you set out to do.

Well, at that time, I didn't know what I was saying. You know, I just knew that I was, young and, and wanted to go get it early on in my career. You know, I was a talented installer, I was a good sales guy, but I had no business acumen at all. It took time to learn that and I failed so often, that, that it, you know, it fired me up to go learn more and put myself in better rooms and, you know, continue to grow.

So let me just make sure I got this right. So you, you worked for him and then you bought a franchise, another location from him?

Well, he owned the Columbia, South Carolina location that time. He actually financed the business for me, really set me up well and helped me out. And, and I owe him a huge debt of gratitude for that. outdoor Lighting perspective is a huge debt of gratitude for, you know, taking a chance on me as well.

I love that, that story because I'm telling you, like, I meet with, you know, I meet with people every single week, and a lot of people are afraid that they're just going to like, train their competition. And I love that he, like, actually not. Not wasn't fighting. It was like, no, there's. If you want to buy this opportunity, like, you can work together, you know. So, like, even if you're part of a franchise, it's pretty easy. There's locations or whatever, but even if you're not, it's like, hey, if you want to help me grow this business and you can go from tech to owner, like, we have a path for you, we have a career path. We need this to open up in this other city. Yeah, that's, that's freaking awesome.

Yeah. And I just feel so differently about competition today than I ever did. I just think it levels up everybody and it brings more awareness to, to the business. And, and I'm, and I'm just like, you know, game on with competition. I, I like it. I like having relationships with other, lighting contractors. I love the community that Outdoor Lighting Perspectives has and, and how we're able to share ideas and, and you've got some of that stuff going on in your, in your business now, where with landscape Lighting Secrets, developing that community where I can see that it, there's value there, just like the Outdoor Lighting Perspectives community. And some of my best friends and some of my lifelong, friendships and, and relationships have come from Outdoor Lighting perspectives inside of that community. And it means a lot to me.

Yeah, I think. Were you always like that or was there a shift of mindset? Because I, I'm just telling you, like, 10, 15 years ago, I was like, I wouldn't go if you called me. You're like, hey, let's go out to lunch. We're competition. I'll be like, weirdo.

Yeah. You know, this is very new to me. It took, a change in mindset that, allowed me to understand that collaboration really happens at the top. You say that collaboration happens at the top and in this business, it's still a very niche small business when you can develop relationships outside of your own company and even develop relationships with your competition. I think it's really important even in your own markets to know who your competition is, have relationships with them. Because if clients are getting multiple bids, it's okay for you to say, hey, I know so and so Lighting company does a great job. It's, you know, confidence in your own company and give the client somebody that's going to also does great work and charges appropriately for it, you know, And I don't mind competing that way.

Have, I don't know, I've maybe to put you on the spot here, but have you seen experiences where that, that collaboration truly does happen at the top and it doesn't sabotage you? Because I know the greatest fear is like, yeah, well, I'm not gonna give away all my secrets, you know, like, what are you gonna do for me? And I've had other people, Andy Thomas, he's in our program, he said the same thing. He like refers at all of his competition, you know, and it's like, like my natural. Even now, even though my mindset is different, my natural man in me is just like, what, like you're going to refer your competition?

Yeah, I have. It's so different for me now because I was that guy that just wanted to crush competition. I just woke up every day going, what am I going to do to beat that guy? And, and it takes.

We have guys in one of our markets that they refer us

It takes meeting one of these guys and saying, this is a real company and they've got good things going, to say, well, maybe. Maybe there's an opportunity here for us to. To share some business or to at least have a good relationship. And, it does happen like that. We have guys in especially one of our markets that they refer us. They don't want to do service and things like that. They refer us. We have a great relationship and it works out. There's. There's always going to be. See, we're a larger company, so we can do big jobs. Not everybody can do that. There's. There's situations where. Where we've bid alongside another landscape lighting company because they just didn't have the manpower to do it. And that's awesome for us. I mean, I'll take that every day.

Yeah, I remember I got a lead and I was like, so how did you hear about us? And because we didn't have it on our sheet on the intake call, and she's like, oh, you know, this lady referred you. She owns this other lighting company. I was like, are they going out of business? Like, I've never referred my competition, and they're like, oh, they said, yeah, you. Like, this is a bigger job. And you were the company to be able to handle this. And I just. I couldn't believe it. But then I automatically felt this reciprocity. And I'm not going to give them, like, a big job, but, like, smaller jobs, three, $4,000 jobs. I was like, you know who you should call? And I would give them work. And it was that reciprocity, you know?

Yeah. That Palm. Palm Beach State job that we just did, over $100,000 landscape lighting job. Freaking awesome job. came from another lighting designer.

Wow.

That referred us that. I like this company. I want to use them.

That's crazy.

You started with Charleston, South Carolina, and that went really well

Well, I want to touch on, like, man, the more I get to know you, I'm like, what. What's happening? because you're not working harder. Like, I can. You're not working harder. You're working smarter. And I'm not saying you don't work hard like, you. You do work hard, but you figured out some things that most are still struggling with, and you've got multiple locations now, and. And most people are just like, dude, I. I can't even get My one location to run. How am I going to go open up in another city? when did you decide, okay, I'm ready to go from where I'm at, and I'm going to go. What'd you do? Go buy another location?

Yeah. So what I realized is I'm not going to ever be rich on one location. I'm, m never going to make the income that I want to make and provide for my family the way I wanted to. And Columbia, South Carolina, was the first market I bought. And it's a smaller market, and it's a great market, and I bootstrapped that market. So I get, you know, calls in every day that come in that are just from being there so long, which is great. but. But I looked around one day and I was doing well, and I said, it's time to level up and buy another location. I started with Charleston, South Carolina, and that went really well. Charleston's a bigger market. It's a great market. And there's a couple of really good lighting companies there. I was intimidated at first because there's some solid companies already in that. In that market. But we jumped in, started competing, and grew that business, as well.

So you. You realize that the math was not mathing.

Math is not mathing.

So. And let's do it real quick. So at a million dollars.

Yep.

Which I don't have science data on this, but I know what's in my head data. There's not. Most companies are not doing a million dollars.

No. No. And am I, Columbia, South Carolina, company did a million, maybe a year. Like, I wasted the first five years fighting, like the laws of business, just, thinking I could just do everything. so it took about year seven. I was seven years in before I did a million. Then I did a million in two years in Charleston. And, you know, we'll do a million in West Palm. And in our second. Well, our second year. Yeah.

Well, let's just say that's the target. Yeah, I know. And some people want to do 20 million. Some people are saying they're fine with 500, whatever it is. But I think let's say at a million dollars that's, big enough to have like a salesperson, some. Someone in the office, an install team, a maintenance team. Like, just kind of like a decent company, right?

Yeah.

Well, if they followed my pricing strategies, they're making more money. But let's just assume they haven't, because most haven't. They're lucky if they're making 10% that most.

Yeah, from. From just dealing with landscape lighting guys. one, they're wasting somewhere. They're wasting eight point. Everybody's wasting eight points somewhere. that's just the bottom line. Most of them are running their business on 18 net, but they're probably making 10 points at the end of the day. Yeah, you're probably about right. The better guys, like, we've got guys at OLP making 24, 25 running just really, really, really cool, efficient businesses. Even, even more than that, we got some impressive, impressive franchisees that just, Just crush.

Well, these. Those guys are studs. And other people are nice guys, but I'm just telling you, like, I know what the average Joe does. And it's not that.

It's not that. No. So at a million bucks, like you were saying, at best you made six figures. Yeah. You're working your butt off to make six. to make. To make. To barely make six figures. And that's if you don't hold back capital for the, for the business to grow next year.

And then when you. And you decide you want to scale or grow, how m. Are you going to put 10 to 10% into marketing? 15. 6%. Like, where's that? What if you want to hire a general manager? What if you want this thing to be a machine? That's an actual business, not a job? Because most of us own a job. You. You have businesses now. Yeah, but the math doesn't work. Like, you can't bring in a general manager and have all these people in place with a million dollars in revenue.

You say you wasted five to seven years trying to make money

It's just not. It's just there's not enough money in there for you to make six figures and pay a general manager and pay a salesperson and have money for, for, you know, capital to grow. It's just not there.

You're absolutely right. I had a business coach. That was one of the first things I hired, I did in year six was I hired a business coach. And, and that business coach looked at me. This guy owned 200 Little Caesars pizzas. and he's a client of mine. He took some time to spend some time with me. And, and I really app. But he, he looked at me one day and he said, he said, kenny, do you. Do you want to own one business that. That operates at 100% efficiency, or do you want to own 10 that operate at 90? And I said, I want to own the 10 that operate at 90, of course. And so, and so I went on that mission and that year I said, I'm going to add seven revenue streams across the next seven years. And I actually added nine revenue streams across the next seven years.

Interesting. So this is where the story, I think, separates from every. Everyone's probably listening to this. When I say everyone, majority of people are listening, going, yeah, I want to do that. I want to have a business. I don't want to own a job anymore. Yeah, but I mean, you said you wasted five to seven years. I know I wasted at least that just because I was just trying to make money, dude. What do you mean? Multiple streams of income and seven types of revenue? Like, I just needed to make enough money to pay the fam. My bills, you know.

Right.

When did you get intentional?

I don't, you know, I think I just knew that I needed to keep building and so I just kept taking any money that we made and built again and made any money. Made and built again and made him. I didn't really know that it was going to wrap up and be this big thing. I just knew that I needed to keep building and then I wasn't, happy with where, where we were. So when you. I don't know. I still don't know to this day, like what, what the ceiling is or where I'm going. I just know that I'm, I'm ready to add more. Right. I'm, I'm. I want to make an investment right now into another company.

I take cash.

Yeah.

Well, there it was probably through your business coach and some, you know, we. This business is so awesome because we get to go inside the homes of very successful business owners, very wealthy people. Sometimes they don't own the business, sometimes they're the CEO, whatever. But these are smart people. And I mean, those were my first business mentors.

Yeah, that was like the first. I fell in love with the clients of landscape lighting before I fell in love with landscape lighting. I, I didn't come from money, you know, you've heard, we've already said. Neither do you. It's I'm, ah, still pissed about.

That, by the way.

Yeah, listen, it's a lot easier to just have a rich uncle.

I used to hate those people, but I'm like, no, I want to be that person. I'm going to make my kids that person.

That would be, that would be nice. yeah. So, you know, being able to step into sales and landscape lighting and meet these people and ask questions on how they were able to buy this huge house and able to live the life that are living and it just, it gave Me that fire to like, I wanna, I wanna be one of those people. And I'll never forget the day when I'm like, hey, I'm my own client now. Like, where I've made it just enough where I can say, because I, you know, early on you're selling lights, I couldn't afford my own lights. I couldn't afford to buy my own lights. And so the day I, I'm like, I look around, I'm like, you know, I think I could afford to be my own client now. That was a good day.

That is cool. Oh yeah, dude. I even at like cost, remember, like buying the lights for your own house, you're like, dang, these are expensive.

Yeah, I got a thousand buck in my, in my lights at my house. Yeah. Now I have a hundred color changing lights at the house.

That's awesome.

You understand the difference between investment and an expense. How do you get into that mindset

Yeah, well, one of the things that I've seen in you is, Well, we'll talk about a few different ones, but one of them is you understand the difference between investment and an expense. You are, you have, At least now, at least from my perspective, you have no fear when it comes to taking these risks. And you probably have fear. We all do. But like, you're like, no, this is a calculated risk. It's an investment. I'm willing to put some cash out now and, and go without for two months, 12 months, two years, whatever it is. How do you get into that mindset? Because most people right now are not willing to invest. Every. Everything's viewed as an expense. I can't afford it. I can't afford it. I can't afford it.

Yeah, you really have to look at it as an investment. And it starts with setting goals like, what do I want? And reverse engineer the goal, like, what do I want out of this? How much money do I want to make? How are we going to reverse engineer that? What do I take? What's it going to take to actually hit that level? And if it might take, like, I'm, I'm crazy with it. Like, we're, I don't mind, I don't care. It's all about the end goal. Like when we, when we open West Palm Beach. I didn't care how much money we lost. It was just, we're going to invest, I think first year, 130,000 in marketing. this year on probably another 130,000 in marketing.

130 grand with zero revenue.

Yeah. Yeah.

Just to make sure.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, it wasn't. You didn't. You didn't put in $130,000 and get zero out? No, it was 130 for the year.

That's the total loss for the whole year. That's correct. And, and, and actually, our, our west, Palm beach guy, he's. He runs a lean business. He was actually able to, to even in spending 130,000 in our first year, he was able to break even, actually make this a little bit of profit in his first year, which was crazy. And that was on 630,000 our first year in West Palm. And, he's got big goals this year, and he's, he's doing, he's doing well for us.

So 130. And then what was the top line?

We did 6:30, I believe, last year, our first year, first full year in West Palm Beach.

So 20% of revenue on marketing the first year.

Yeah. And, dude, that. The marketing in that market kind of, kind of crushed me because I went into Florida, like, not knowing Florida at all. And it's very different than marketing in South Carolina. And West Palm beach is its own animal too. You know, like, knowing a market when you go in would really help, but I'm too dumb to do that research, so I just jumped in and spent the money, you know, do it all the way. I've always done it.

What do you think the revenue would have been with zero ad spend? We, uh, would have

What do you think the revenue would have been with zero ad spend?

We, would have, Without my, my. I have a marketing team now. That's great. Without them jumping through hoops every week, you know, trying to adjust our marketing and watching everything the way we do, we, we would not have, we would not have made it that way, you know, and without John doing some networking and really jumping out there, it would have been, it would have been tough.

Yeah, well, even the networking, I mean, you know, you go out and you make these relationships, but the marketing supports that.

Absolutely. It starts with marketing. It starts with investment, then it starts with marketing.

Yeah. And the thing is, like, the, all the work that he did this last year, I'm sure he's. He's probably had days and weeks and months of frustration. Like, man, this guy was on the hook. He's ready to go. And then we don't have anything that's going to start paying off.

Absolutely. Yeah. You. You sow those seeds every day. Like I tell the guys, you, you need to feel sick in your stomach if you don't have anything, and if you don't, you need to go get it. We go find it every single day, and then all of a sudden you turn around you hit goals.

That's freaking awesome.

How many OLP franchise locations do you have? It's 10

So now you said, how many OLP franchise locations do you have?

It's 10 franchises, across South Carolina and Florida. They operate as four separate businesses. The, Columbia, South Carolina is the one I've owned the longest. It's. It's. It's my. It's the baby. But, but Orlando, The Orlando office is. It runs, I mean, really well. That. That market is great, and my team in that location is great. My Charleston operations, runs great. My. My Charleston guy, he's probably the best sales guy I've ever seen in the organization.

What, Him. What makes him better at sales?

You ever met somebody that just. That just could make a relationship and a friendship in one second? Like, you just want to hug them?

I thought that was you.

Well, I think I, you know, I'm. I'm learning from him. he. He's just. He can. He can create a relationship. People just love him immediately, and he. He makes those relationships, and people want to buy from him. It doesn't matter the price. At the end of the day, they want to do business with him, and he. And he just does a great job.

You know, it's funny because, like, there. There's strategy to sales, for sure, but if people don't like you, like, it's just not happening. Like, my framework probably isn't going to work as well.

Well, and there's. And there's. There's sales tactics that work better than relationship sales tactics, but that just. I. I believe in this business that authentic, like, relationship building, sales guy, you can't. You can't touch him.

So you started with the one location. Now you've got 10 franchises, four businesses. What do you do every day?

Yeah, this.

Your team asked. They wanted me to ask that. They're like, what the heck? This can even work anymore. On vacation, all just snowboarding in Utah.

Yeah, they find. They make it. They find it funny to tell everybody. I'm just, where's Kenny at now? You know, But I like that.

Let's do a Where's Kenny Board.

Yeah. Yeah. I, My job now is really focused on the plan. I tell our guys, you know, it's my job to pave the road as smooth as I can pave it, so my team can drive the bus, you know, and. And keep that thing on the road with no issues. I spend most of my time working on business, plan, finance plan, and marketing plans. I. And then I. The rest of my time is built just developing people. I find that's my true, like, passion within the business now. And I'm a lighting guy. We haven't talked about lighting at all. but I love landscape lighting. Like, the art of it all. But I love developing people. Like, becoming a millionaire is one thing. Like, making millionaires is a, Oh, my God. There's nothing that fuels the body like making a millionaire.

You mentioned pave the road. I like that. I actually never heard that analogy. I always think about we're putting out fires, you know, and I'm like, well, let's just prevent the fire from happening. And that's what the leader should do. They should pave the road. They should make it like, no, you should make this enjoyable for the team members so that they don't have the same problems over and over and over. And when you don't have a leader because the leaders fighting the fire with you, it's just. Or not paving the road. It's just gonna be a bumpy road the whole way through.

Yeah. Knowing your team and then setting them up for success, like, the. Giving them the ability to succeed because you know their strengths and weaknesses. That's the magic. That's where the magic happens.

When you transitioned from in the field to visionary role, did you feel guilty

When you. When you transitioned from, like, in the field to this visionary role.

Yeah.

Did you feel guilty?

You know, the first thing, the first thing I thought was, man, I get a lot of infield sales. Those things are going to go away. So I had to figure out some way to build a sales culture, which was. Which was fun. But, But I don't think I felt guilty. No. I just. I was on a different mission. I was. I was on to the next big thing, and I miss it sometimes. Like, I love going and working in the field. I've helping, helping with jobs. You know, I don't get to do it as much as I. As I used to, but when there's, It's always funny when my guys see me show up in my work boots, they know it's going to be a tough day because they're like, kenny's on the job. This job must suck. So.

But you never felt like. I feel like a lot of guys are held back because they're like, no, I started this thing, and I started in the trenches with the crew, and now they're going to be like, oh, you. You're dressed nice, and you're. You. You don't have the boots on today. And, you know, oh, you're in Utah or whatever. You don't feel like you never felt like that.

I think I just Felt differently. I felt like unless I grew the company, I would never be able to.

Keep these people nice.

I needed to create more opportunity for everyone around me. And so I bought other business. I bought a mosquito squad. I bought conservative irrigation. You know, I started other things, that would. That would complement, the. The current outdoor lighting business. So that way there was opportunity, more opportunities for everyone around me.

Oh, gosh. I like that so much because the. The people that tell me they feel guilt, I. I resonate with them. I'm like, no. Yeah, like, I'm not better than you just because I'm doing this. But I think that my mindset was broken back then, and it's transitioned to where you're talking about, where it's like, you know what, you're doing them a disservice by not getting out of the truck and paving the road. You're doing them a disservice by not starting up these other locations. Because now you can afford, like, you're not limited right now. Most people are limited, and they want to make good decisions, but they just can't, like, financially, they can't. you're not limited by that, and your goal is to now develop people. That's a way better strategy than, like, oh, I'm just going to work side by side and I'm with you, brother.

Yeah, no, exactly. It was my job to. To secure the future of these companies, and I couldn't do that. M. Behind the wheel of a truck. I needed to go secure the future of these companies and the future of these people's paychecks by. By going and developing more business and creating more opportunities.

Let's kind of dive down that a little bit further. Like, now you, you know, you fast forward and I don't know, maybe. Maybe we can go back into some of those things. But now you've got these, you know, four businesses, 10 locations. Why is it better now, not just for you, but really for the future of your. All your team members?

Well, you get to, you know, push risk across all the companies. You get to share in expenses across all the companies. It gives you buying power across everything. Outdoor lighting perspectives. Being just being an Outdoor Lighting Perspectives franchise, you have better buying power, you know, and better opportunities there, too. That, you know, so. But having your own organization within the organization creates bigger opportunities as well, you know, that's. It's all of that added in together.

Well, and I look at, like, the amount of value that you can provide to your team members, your clients, is much greater, even though like, it's almost counterintuitive because we think, well, no, if I'm the owner, I got to be there. I got to do the design. I got to. I want to show up on the install day so I can be like, yeah, the owner's here. You know, like, badge of honor. Like, hey, Mrs. Smith, I'm the owner, and I'm still on a job site.

Yeah, I still feel weird about that sometimes. Like, I have clients that have been with us for 15, 18 years, and they call me personally and they're, like, expecting me to come out to the house. And, and it's actually ends up being really nice when you. When you are able to hand them off to another great person that then they develop a relationship with, and all of a sudden they don't call you anymore. They're calling, you know, the guy that they've got a relationship with now. And. And then. And then they have jokes like, oh, Kenny's on vacation again. You know. Love it with the clients.

Yeah, well, that's good that. That helps them bond with the client, you know.

Yeah, exactly.

You can make 200 grand for an owner, but it requires a lot of time

Well, just even, like doing napkin math here. Let's say someone wants to make 200 grand, in order. It's a. It's a lot more challenging. Maybe not at first. Like, if you just have one location, you can go and make 200 grand for an owner, whether we want to call it draws salary, I won't get into that. But just 200 grand, you can do that, but it still requires a lot of your time. If you read the book, buy back your time. I'd rather invest some of that money back into that. And that's what you've done. So now if you want to make 200 grand, and by the way, taking all 200 out of that company, now, there's no extra profit. There's no extra money to invest in the growth where if you have four companies and you take 50 from each one, well, now that's a, that's like. That's so much more power that each of those companies have because they're in a better financial position.

Yeah, I'm not a financial burden on any of the companies. Like, like my, My. The person. The income that I need to support my family is not a burden on any one company. I'm able to spread that burden, amongst all of the companies. And then that way, it just makes it very much easier to afford things, hire better people, pay people better money. You know, it's. It's just a better way to do It.

You said earlier that you were fighting the laws of business

I wrote something down that you said earlier you were fighting the laws of business. What do you mean by that? What were some of the things that you were just stubborn and, and trying to outwork the business man.

You know, I was that dude that would like, run through a brick wall and, and I, I, you know, I just would go work it, but I wasn't doing it smart. I just thought that I had to go it alone and I was going to do it all myself and everything was gonna, you know, it wasn't until I actually hired like a solid office manager. And she's still with me today. Kristen Ferco, she works in a different, but she was a game changer from the business. Having someone else that talented come in and really help me with developing, the company was, was huge. And she's like, say she's still with, with me today. But some of those challenges is just like your own head, like not knowing what you don't know. you know, I, I, the first, you know, first, you know, 10, six or seven years, I did the whole, you know, bank balance accounting, like all the, like all landscape lighting guys do where you think you're rich for a second. I made every mistake you can think of in business, but like, when you.

Get that big deposit, that's when you go brag to your friends and family. I got $50,000 job. And then two weeks later you're broke. You don't tell anyone.

Yeah. And what guys don't realize, man, is it just takes one bad month if you, if you get that big check and then you spend that money and you aren't really running off of a budget, so you don't know how much profit you're really making. And most guys don't. I talk to landscape lighting guys all the time. Most of them have no clue how much profit they're actually making because they don't actually run budgets. And so, and so those guys are in trouble when they, when they have a bad month. They spend the money that came in. They're technically spending all the profits. They, they end up having a bad month and then they spend the rest of their year robbing Peter to pay Paul. You know, they're, they're installing jobs today that they're not going to pay for for 30 or 60 days. And that cycle just crushes the gliding company.

Well, again, another reason for growth is because when you can have a team doing the business stuff like, we were talking yesterday, like you're, you're putting together budgets you're meeting with these companies every single week. Where are the numbers at? Okay, what needs to change? Why are we low? Why are we high? Like, what's going on? It's hard to do that. You remember being in the field, like, when, when are you gonna have time to create a budget? When you're out doing installs?

Yeah, now. And I still was very scheduled. like I would work all day in the company early on, and then I would work, I would clock into like the second job where I would work in the business and bookkeeping and marketing and all that kind of stuff in the, in the evenings. And I was working, you know, 18 hour days, four days a week, five days a week. It was, it was a tough time. And this business, it will burn you out if you let it. You've got to build teams and systems and processes around you that'll, that'll support you. And, and, and the outdoor lighting perspectives franchise system helps out obviously, because, you know, a lot of that stuff is set up and you get all that support, but, but you still have to go do it yourself.

I, I, I don't think I came up with this, but I've been calling it lately intentional success. Like, success doesn't just happen every once in a while. You get lucky. But even then, like, I feel like the luck was like, you were prepared for this. You, you were doing something to get to this, this moment of luck. And I don't know, you have to tie that to like, something. Like, why, why did you want it? What, what fuels you to want to go do that next acquisition? What fuels you? Because a lot of people say they want something, but they're not willing to clock in when they just clocked out of their main gig. It's like, well, what do you mean, Kenny? I don't want to do that. I don't want to work 18 hours a day. I got a family and I'm fed up. Well, I mean, how do you, where do you find that fuel?

That's a great question. I honestly don't know. we sat down with our financial advisor this year, my wife and I, and my wife is not built the way I am. She's not a spender. She's very frugal. She's, like, doesn't spend money at all. So, like, our budget is very easy. We've lived on the same amount of money the last 10 years. You know, it's not, our lifestyle hasn't really changed that much. And so, and so I don't know what fuels me. I. Maybe it's an addiction. I don't want to call it that. I just love it. I love business. Like, I would talk it 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I love it. I love other people's success. I really enjoy listening to other stories and learning. but the business, like, bug, especially when you have that success.

What motivates me is, like, the business. I'm making okay money, but I've got bigger dreams

What motivates me is, like, the. The un. Like, I don't know what the end game is for me. I don't know, like, how far I can go. I'm just reaching a new platform and then resetting the goalposts and reaching a new platform and reset the goalposts, you know, and that's what, That's what I'm doing right now. But I just love the business.

Yeah. Well, and that's okay. I feel like no one really knows what the next step is because you haven't gotten to the goal post yet. Yeah, but. And you've been able to keep resetting it. There's just so many people that are stuck, and I think it's because they don't know where the goal post is. They don't. They haven't defined what their goal post is, and they're fine. They've just been. They just settle and, like, yeah, it's fine. I'm making okay money.

Yeah. And so many guys, you know, start a business just so they can, like, you know, beat their chest and tell everybody they're a business owner and they've got pride in all of that. But I, always tell guys, like, pride is the ultimate killer of a business. It is the ultimate killer if you walk around too, you know, just proud to tell everybody you're a business owner. You know, you've got to. You've got to have passion, but you've got to have a purpose, too. And my purpose early on was to provide the life that I promised my wife's grandfather that I would. That I would give her. And we had a girl at home that. That. That I owed her a great life as well. And so. And so I was just, relentless at trying to provide that for them.

That's, cool, man. I. Honestly, I'm just like. From my perspective, I'm just like, what? This guy is a machine. You know, like, you. You don't stop. And it's like, no, I've got bigger dreams. You don't know exactly what that dream is, but, you know, it's bigger than where you're at now. And I draw a lot of inspiration from it, too. Because you're. You're kind of like, living this model. I'm, like, trying to, like, see, like, he does exist. Like, guys, I'm telling you, like, you will be happier, your life will be smoother. You're going to empower others. You're going to be a leader to others. You're going to bless the lives of all your team members. There is an easier way. And too many businesses, and one of the reasons they fail is because it's hard. Like, it's freaking hard when you're small. There's no redundancy. Like, there's no. There's no option for failure. Like, there's no.

Absolutely. It always drives me crazy when, you know, somebody says, like, you know, it must be nice to be Kenny, or it must be nice to be this business owner. That business owner must be nice to have these things. And I'm like, I don't know if you understand what it took, the sacrifices that, you know, you and your family make to, be able to reach those. Those levels. And as long as there are means to an end, as long as there's a means to an end, there's this. There's a way to get there, and you keep control of what that goal is, which is to spend more time with your family and to make the money they need, to support everybody. And you keep those things in perspective, then you won't lose.

Yeah, that's awesome, man.

There is a rift between franchisees and non franchise business owners

I got to ask you, what is up? There is something between a franchise business owner and a non franchise business owner. You seem to have a pretty good pulse on it. What is up with that? Because I grew up. Grew up. I'll say grew up in business being like, oh, I'm not. I'm not a franchise.

Yeah.

Like, I started this on my own. I'm a lone wolf dog. I don't need support. I don't need support. No, I'm like, no, I need support. I need support. But there is, like a rift there, right?

Well, I think there, you know, I think there's just. There's a misunderstanding of, of what a franchise business is. And, and I think when a guy is successful without doing the franchise route, you know, it gives. It gives fuel to that, to that fire. But the, The Frank. What. What the franchise, in its, you know, simplest of terms is it's a. Is. It's a resource and a business model that, that, you know, works. And I tell you the biggest thing for, and why I love opening an outdoor Lighting Perspectives franchise is I can. I can Open a new location and be fully functional, ready to go. Website, I can have, everything you need. Google my business, I can have everything up and running in 30 days. So everybody's like, oh, you know, they asked me questions like why, you know, why, why do you stay with the franchise? Why do you continue doing that one? I love the franchise. I grew up in it and I owe that to them. but. And you know, over the years, you, you end up being more of an asset to the franchise. I think I'm a huge asset to the franchise now. I provide support for all of those guys. But, but the fact that I can open a new location in 30 days, be fully operational and like we. Outdoor Lighting Perspectives has a brand new website, awesome website that's launching any day now, I think. And and I didn't work on that website, not once. I can't imagine if I would have had to devote the amount of hours that it takes to, to, to build an awesome website. I didn't do any of that. I just am able to be the beneficiary of someone else of the corporate, well, of the franchisor, doing that.

Yeah.

But the rift between franchisees and franchisors comes from a misunderstanding and process that franchisees aren't real business owners and it's because they have support. But you're providing support for all of these guys. Are all. Do, do all the guys in your program, do they not own real businesses? No, they own real businesses. They're just getting help. And, and the franchise system. The biggest difference is between what you're doing, which is great for landscape lighting, obviously, but the what then what Outdoor Lighting Perspectives is doing, it has a lot of similarities in the support, but Outdoor Lighting Perspectives is building a single brand, Outdoor Lighting Perspectives across the entire country. it's a hundred locations building one brand versus everybody building their own brand.

Yeah.

And when that brand is built well, with quality people and ours is, it really benefits the entire organization. It's huge.

I love it. Well, I'm hoping that Landscape Lighting Secrets is like the middle ground. You know, we're bringing people together because you and I agree on a lot of things. It's like no collaboration, you know, it happens at the top, you know, for sure.

No, you're doing a great job. And I joined Landscape Lighting Secrets because I needed like, so m. Last year was a tough year for everybody in, that I know in landscape, like 2024 was tough. And in about middle of the year, I was $700,000 off my sales goal I was, you know, I got 50 people who work for me and, and everybody's looking at me for the answers. And I told you yesterday, I had already pulled out all everything in my bag of tricks and you know, nothing, nothing was working. The whole Google thing that happened last year, it was ah, you know, it really infected, affected the business and, and I've got franchisees and other businesses that look at me for for the answers as well. I'd failed everybody at that point. I had nothing to say. And so that day I went to my wife and I said I need to expand my knowledge base. It's time I go outside, and rub elbows with the rest of the landscape lighting community and figure out what's going on. I need to bring back some answers for my team and for everybody else that depends on me. And, and I really, I, I didn't. My first meeting with you guys, I had been on some of the calls, but I went to the Utah meeting which was a fantastic meeting. I took a lot away from that meeting and meeting all the guys. What, what I found was that's slightly different than in the franchise. business is, is when you've got young guys and you've got a lot of one to three year old, landscape lighting guys. These guys come in and they're brand new to the business and, and like I was telling you, they, they solve problems different than us old boys do. Right? Like we, we just do it because we've done it that way forever and, and these guys are coming in and they're solving problems in a different way. And, and I can learn a lot. I've been in business 20 years. I can learn a lot from those guys, a lot of times more from those guys. And I'll learn from, from even the guys that have been in it a really long time.

Well and it's interesting because that younger crowd, they, they don't have that stigma of like, well, hold on, is my competition here. Like, they just know like, hey, like they'll ask any question, number one.

Yeah.

Which is freaking awesome. And then they'll give any information. So you create this, I mean you felt it in the room, this energy of like, whoa, this is powerful. Like I have 29 partners in here.

Yeah, it was awesome. It was almost that feeling like I get when I open a new location, those butterflies like, like this is, this is it, we're going to build something. And and seeing those guys in the infancy stages of their businesses just trying to learn and, and, and grow was, was really cool. And I get that same feeling with new franchisees as well, where, where I get to, you know, help them. And I, I'm always open. Call me anytime. I'm willing to help with anything.

A lot of people ask me who's landscape lighting secrets for

My, my cell phone's always on. You know, I really enjoy that.

Well, you know, it's cool. I mean, a lot of people ask me, they're like, well, who's landscape lighting secrets for? Is it for the new guys? It for the veteran? I'm like, I know this may, may sound like I'm just trying to get business here, but it's for everybody. And it's because of that. Like, and to be honest, I have this, like, this feeling. I can't remember what it's called, but it's like, well, Kenny, like, how am I gonna help you? Like, are you. You're good, dude. And it's like, no, you mentioned it. Like, the reason a lot of these businesses fail because of pride. And it's like, if that person's prideful, coming into a program like this is not going to help, you know, but if you're willing to listen and learn from someone who maybe has only installed 100 fixtures, you're going to pick up a lot of stuff.

Yeah. And what I like about your organization, too, is you allow us to let our teams in on all the information as well. And so, and so my teams have the logins, they sit in on the calls and they're doing the training. And we're using some of your resources, as well as the, you know, obviously the outdoor lighting perspectives one, and we're able to get your ideas and, and, and, and your team's ideas on top of what we're doing. And it's just making us a better company. I'm not worried about competition because I'm committed to being better every day. my organization is going to grow every day.

Yeah. I love that.

Kenny earned the Lighting Millionaire Club Award very quickly

Well, I, I guess this is. We're going to try to do this. I don't know. We're not going to do anything other than I'm just going to announce it. We have an award that's called the LMC, the Lighting Millionaire Club. We have 100K Club, which, the 100K, when we sent that to you, we got an awesome video posted online. Kenny doing the hill clicker and 100k, guys. I mean, a lot of people think it's a really dumb award, but what we do is we celebrate these achievements because, like, where else do you get celebrated for being a badass business owner. And we want to be that company. So, Kenny, when you earned the 100k, we sent you the 100k certificate.

Yeah.

People were like, it took him this long to get 100k?

Yeah. Yeah. Everybody was like, I couldn't believe that. No. I got a call from another friend, that owns outdoor, Lighting Perspectives in Michigan, and he's like, didn't you do that during breakfast this morning? Yeah. I'm like, well, but why do.

You, why do you, why did you celebrate? Because some people that we give that award to, they're not that proud of it.

No, I'm, I, I, I have a point. We're going to celebrate every win. and, you know, we have different points we hit in our business. it's, it's awesome to be recognized, even if it's a, even if it's a small award. I, I was pumped to celebrate it no matter what. You sent me something, a really cool hoodie as well. So I was, I was excited to, to get it.

That was cool. And then, I, I should have looked this up before. This is the problem with a live show is you just hit the start button, and then they're like, oh, crap, I forgot to figure stuff out. But then you earned very, very quickly the LMC Award. Do you remember when you joined August?

Okay, I thought it was right before officially in August.

Yeah. So joined in August, and then do you remember when you hit the lmc, the Lighting Millionaire Club?

I don't. Darcy did confirm m that you're gonna say this.

No, it, I was just wondering what the date was because it was a very short period of time. We do know that. It's the fastest. It's the fastest we've ever had someone earn the lmc, which is earning a million dollars in revenue after joining Landscape Lighting Secrets. So, yeah, I think it was, it.

Was just over 60 days, I believe.

Okay.

I, have to go.

That's what I forgot to look up.

But, but Darcy, I, I, you know, I asked her when I, when I applied for the, when I sent in the numbers for everything, and she said, I said, is that, is that the fastest? She's like, oh, yeah, that's the fastest. I'm like, that's awesome.

She does all the awards. And, I did confirm it'll be at your house. Looks like later this week.

Awesome.

So it's in the mail.

That one's a little heavier. I don't know if I can jump up with that one.

Well, if you do more push ups, you'd be fine.

Okay. I have been skipping my push ups.

okay, let's see, what was the other. Okay, what.

Light it Up Expo is in three weeks in Utah

we should talk about landscape lighting real quick actually. before we do that Light it Up Expo. So this is in three weeks. and you're actually going to lead a session.

Yeah.

down there. What are you going to be talking about?

So I'm, I'm pumped about going to the show. I really enjoyed the meeting in Utah. I've gone through some of your agenda stuff. The speakers you're going to have there are like game changer, speakers, guys that really know what they're talking about. So I'm excited about that. But I'm super passionate about my topic as well. And it's about a journey because I lived it of changing your mindset from being an operator in a business to really being the owner of the company and what it takes to get there. and a lot of it's mindset, it's work ethic, it's everything that's involved in that. And I think that I think that class is, is, it's inspirational but it applies to more way, way more than landscape lighting. It applies to any business. And it's truly a business class. You've got guys better than me at lighting design teaching, lighting design. You got guys better than me at installing that are doing installs. But I know that life and I'm excited to teach that class.

I'm excited too. You know me, I mean it's called Landscape Lighting Secrets but it's, it's a, this is a business community that we're building disguised as a landscape lighting thing. I, I love it too. And it literally is the, the catalyst that can change our lives, that can give us the freedom we're chasing. We can determine our future and we're blessed that we get to use landscape lighting as a tool. Like that's, that's amazing too. Like we don't have to do roofing or whatever.

Landscape lighting is truly an amazing industry that has a ton of benefits

what do you love about landscape lighting?

So I, my original love for landscape lighting was the like the absolute art of it all. Right. Like, like the way you could go out and in one, day you could change someone's entire, the entire way they live. Like they just use their space so differently. The clients that you meet and the design of it all and the fixtures and the way it all comes together and how quickly you can do it. Like it, it just resonated with me. I loved it from go. Everything about it. so that's really what I love about landscape lighting. The money's good too, obviously, but, but everything around landscape lighting, what it stands for, you know, there's a lot of companies that make, that make money on people on their worst day. We get to make money on people on their best days, you know, and that's a. I think that's an inspirational thing.

That's true.

Are so happy to pay us, and we make a real, impact on their lives and the way they use their space. And it doesn't take long before you have that client that tells you like, you know, you really, you know, you made my life better. You made our yard so much better, so much more usable. And grandma didn't fall off the steps last night because what he did, you know, so it's. It's truly an amazing industry that has a ton of benefits. And, it's hard. It's a hard business business because this business will burn you out in the beginning if you don't run it correctly. But, but it's a great business.

Well, I'm excited to be, part of your session. Listen to hear what you have to say. And, I mean, you're an inspiration for me. I never built a 10 location landscape lighting business, so I'm over here taking notes. Trust me.

Yeah. And we got big goals this year. you know, we want to do big things. I don't know of a $10 million landscape lighting company, but I want to be like, that's my, that's my goal. I want to be a $10 million landscape lighting company. We're more than halfway there, and I think we can, we can. I'm. I think I can hit it in the next couple of years.

Well, I'm happy to keep creating awards. the next one is the Penta million, so that's 5 million after joining Landscape Lighting Secrets. And then we have the LMCX, which is, the 10 mil. So I'm looking forward to creating the 25 million, the 50 million, 100 million. I mean, these are, these are just things that are, they're bound to happen.

Yeah.

and that's why I love seeing your passion, your energy. I'm like, man, we, we need people like that. And, you know, we were even just driving around last night, like, there's, there's so much opportunity out there for landscape lighting. And, you're. You're not afraid to go out there and get it. I love it.

No. And the industry's changing so much, you know, Like, I. I'm surprised at how much permanent lighting is. Is here in Utah.

Well, that's because we're in the Mecca, yo.

I didn't. I, you know, I didn't realize that. It's, like every house had it. Every. It's a Monday and everybody's got, like.

You know, different colors.

Different colors on. Yeah, like, that would. That's not a normal thing for South Carolina. You still get like, that, you know, Southern Bell thing going on in the south, where everybody just wants, you know, warm white. We're not. We're only doing color on holidays. Florida is a different story. Florida's the show me state, man. They'll. Yeah, it's flash on. Flash on flash. I love it.

Now one of my neighbors, they're just cheap and they left their Christmas lights up. So that wasn't permanent. That was just like, why do they have Christmas lights up? Because then they don't have to take them down.

Yeah, there you go.

You've got some involvement with Redwoods Lighting. What's your affiliation with that

all right, so we. I still want to talk about one more thing, a couple more things. Redwoods, lighting. What's your affiliation with that? Because, you know, you're obviously, you own these businesses, but now, you're. You've got some involvement with Redwoods Lighting. They're going to be. Redwoods Lighting is going to be at our show exhibiting their products as well.

Yeah. TJ Lucero is the owner of that company. And. And he does fast, fantastic job. He's an impressive guy. and. And been in manufacturing for a long time, but I, You know, six years ago, I guess it was about six years ago, you know, I was not necessarily impressed with what we were using. I wasn't proud of all the fixtures that we were using. And, TJ started a landscape lighting manufacturing, business and allowed me to do some consulting on fixture design. And that was a new cool facet of the company. I had graduated from install to being able to do sales and then being like the. The guy doing everything and then really kind of falling into that owner's role and then to find something else in landscape lighting that I could be passionate about, which was, you know, learning fixture design and metals and finishes and optics and components and what actually makes a great landscape light. Right. and so that was that. That's been a fun journey. I've really, enjoyed. Enjoyed that.

And so, like, do you help with the design or tell them, you know, what, this is what landscape lighting people really need, or most of what I'm.

Doing is just testing products that TJ makes, you know, I, you know, throwing it out in the field and seeing what works and what doesn't, and then, and then just giving him feedback on design and things. But, but early, early on, you know, he, we were, he was calling me, you know, all the time, say, hey, should I. What do you think about this idea? And what do you think about that idea? And, and, and he really wanted to make fixtures that were different than what everybody else had on the market. And I, and I supported that.

Very cool.

What would be your fastest path to success? Hmm. I think what I, what I want to ask you is

what else? I think what I, what I want to ask you is like, you know, you take. Take everything you've learned. You have your, you have your knowledge, but you take away all your businesses, you take away all the money. What would be your fastest path to success?

And yeah, you gotta take away all the money.

Yeah, you gotta take all the money. You're broke, but you have the knowledge. you don't have.

If I had to do tomorrow, I would jump into a high pay sales job and I would build capital as fast as I can to be able to invest in a business that's. I would, I would, I would. If I had to build everything, tomorrow I go work for a company doing sales, and then I would live as cheap as I can and build as much capital as I can. Because I know that slow growing a business sucks. Like being able to apply capital to a business and make decisions not solely based on if I'm making payroll this week or not. that changes a business. When you no longer have to worry about how you're going to make payroll on Friday. You make decisions based on what's best for the business. It takes capital to do that, and you could do it without it. I started the first company with 12,000 bucks, right? It took me a while to be able to gain any capital to. And you know, I've made some stupid mistakes in there too, but.

Well, how do you have that financial discipline? Because a lot of people are like, you know, no, I don't want debt. Dave Ramsey does a good job helping people will get out of debt. I personally believe in. I don't like personal debt. I mean, I have a mortgage on this house, but I like to just pay cash for everything. I've never had credit card debt, never will. But from a business standpoint, I'm okay, you know, leveraging some debt. How, how do you do that? Because other people just don't know how to like, manage the numbers.

Yeah, the, the rule of thumb is you only Going to leverage debt if it makes you money. M Like we're never going to go get the Best buys, you know, TV deal where we financed you know, six TVs for our house for, for 8,000. But you know, we're not going to be, we're only outside of your house in your car like I am, I am m relentless on this. Outside of my house and my car. Every, I will not take on any debt that doesn't make me money. And if the debt does make money, then, then, then I'm still going to pay that debt off with the profits of the company before I take a, I take a draw on it.

What about. Yeah, before you go on vacation?

Well, no, I mean I'm getting paid by enough of these other companies to, to be able to go on vacation so I don't have to like, I, I, I, you know, when I can open a company now, not take any money from the company, I can just grow it. I can take every penny that that company makes and just focus on growing it.

That's the power that I want people to tap into. Multiple streams of income. I have multiple streams of income. So when I started Landscape Lighting Secrets, it was the same thing. Like how much is it gonna cost me to over deliver and give these people an amazing experience? And when you can make decisions like that, you can grow a business really easily and you're not limited by that capital.

Well, and you can, it's, you can improve four or five points and four or five points is huge when you make better decisions, better buying decisions and you're tracking things the way they need to be tracked so that you can make better decisions. That's why I bought that Mosquito Squad business. And I bought it just so that I could supply outdoor lighting perspectives with labor for Christmas lights. and I hated that company by the way, because there was no client loyalty and mosquito spraying. But what I loved about that business is it taught me to make data driven decisions because that, that phone for Mosquito Squad, it, it or any mosquito business, it only rings for two reasons. It rings because you've got a new customer or, or a client saying that it doesn't work.

Problem.

Yeah. And and, and you know, if you just listen to those calls where they say over and over again, your product doesn't work, your product doesn't work or it's not effective in my yard or whatever, it'll, it'll, it, you'll make decisions that are, that are the wrong decision. But at the end of the day, when you make data driven decisions. Like for instance in that mosquito business, you know, we may have gotten our retreat rate was, you know, 1% or 11 1/2% or whatever it was. And and, and if you just listen to that client that says it doesn't work on the house, then you might want to change the what, what you're doing. But when you look at the mass and you make a decision based on data that says, yeah, well, 98.5% say it's working perfectly. You know, it taught me to make, to not get emotional with business and just make data driven decisions. And so from that point I just, I just made everything in the business data. Like I want my bank account balanced every single day. I want the, if I go into QuickBooks, I want it to tell me exactly where we are every single day. And I want to pull a budget versus actual report and know where we are anytime, so that I know, so I can make decisions on, on how we're doing and what we need to do improve so I can make short term quick decisions.

That's really good. I mean as entrepreneurs, most of us, especially in landscape lighting, I've noticed we're way more passionate people than like other industries because of that design side artistic, I think. And so we take into consideration our feelings a lot. And if we get a one star review, well, yeah, we have to, of course we have to restart the company and change all the processes because we got a one star review.

Blow up Google my business. We don't want that bad review.

Yeah, like, and I love what you said because like, dude, if 99% of the people love you, then you just have to accept that that person's just a terrible person and probably going to hell.

It's like, you know, I had a client one time give me a four star review and they, they acted like they were doing me a favor where they're like, hey, I just think.

you look normal.

You have all five stars. I figure if I threw a four in there, it would help you. Like people would realize that they're, you.

Know, now you're fired.

Yeah, I want all five stars. Will you please go change that?

Yeah, well, that's, that's great advice because honestly we do, we do make too many emotional, you know, decisions based on feelings rather than data. And the numbers don't lie and the data is real. So. Yeah, that's really good.

Do you still have that business or no? No, I sold the mosquito business

Do you still have that business or no?

No, I sold the mosquito business. I was happy to get out of that business. and it was a great business. you know, what I loved about that business is the cash flow on that business was great. You collect all your money at the beginning, and then you just disperse it. It makes you be very disciplined with your money because you collect it all in the beginning. And so that was great learning experience with that business as well. but no, I no longer own that company. I have a friend of mine, his name's Luke, that bought that business for me. He owns the mosquito, squad in Augusta as well.

So hopefully he's not listening, because I think you said that you. You didn't like that business.

Well, what. What I didn't like about the business was I come from outdoor lighting, where. Where client loyalty meant something. It didn't matter if the next client was. Yeah, the next customer person gave them a flyer that was $100 cheaper than me. They didn't care because client loyalty meant something. But in. But in that business, much like other businesses, like, fertilizer businesses and things like that, people are more apt to change companies based on pricing. And at that time was the heyday of everybody joining the mosquito business. And so people would come, guys would come into a market, and they would just buy business up, and it would ruin your business plan for the whole year. And there just wasn't any client loyalty in it. you know, the best. I think the best retention rate I ever had was, like, was like 78% or something like that. And that hurt me. Like, why did 20.

It seems pretty good.

Yeah. But, but what happened to him, like, it made me. It drove me crazy. Like, because I wanted. I wanted. I wanted 100 retention rate. I wanted to be the company that. That everybody just wanted to deal with. And there was just no way to do that in that business. And it just didn't sit well with me. And I was happy to sell that business.

So do you. Did you say you have about 50 people working for you now?

Yeah.

That's impressive.

Sean: We have a real recruiting problem at our company

What, is it harder to recruit or harder to retain?

you know, we have a real recruiting problem. and I'm hoping to. I'm. I'm, I met with, your guy that does higher lead. Chill.

Sean's on here. Yeah, he was giving you some, shout outs earlier.

Sean. I. I enjoyed my conversation with him. Signing up with him. Ready to try that, that process, I think. You know, I'm so intrigued with the psychology of people and sales, that. That his process, resonated with me. And. And we're signing up to, to try that. I'm hoping that that fixes my recruiting issue. I'm, I'm guessing it will. I'm excited to hear him speak at your event as well. I think he's a cool guy. He's got some good things going. I'm really pumped to see him unpack onboarding as well because I think everybody has a problem with onboarding, you know. so I, I think he said, well, I don't know if I'm allowed to tell this or not. He's on here.

So we're gonna find out.

We're gonna announce it.

It's a live show, baby.

That's right. he he, he's working through an onboarding process now as well where he'll be able to take over onboarding. I haven't done anything with him but we, we need to hire a couple of guys now and I'm, I'm excited for that. Retention high in my company is, really has never been a problem, but, but low level techs has been a little bit of revolving door, a little bit of a revolving door in a few of my locations up until this year. which you know, hurt me. I had one of my longest GMs leave this year and he, he was a great guy. He really helped develop one of the businesses with me and, and I made a mistake with him. I stopped developing him and and I was focused on other things. And I really think that that's one of the reasons why, why he decided to take another, another job. I didn't, I didn't give him a path, a clear path to, to doing bigger and better things. And he sat in that role for a while and I thought he was in a role that he really enjoyed. He ended up getting burned out in that role. And it taught me a valuable lesson. I need to get back out there and develop people. And it created a huge opportunity for another one of my guys who moved to Columbia, South Carolina. His name's Greg. I'm pumped for him to, he's doing a great job and he's motivated to run the, run that business. And so it created another opportunity for someone else. But, but it, it, it reassured the fact that I need to be developing people at all times.

How do you develop people? What do you mean by that?

So you first, you start out with what motivates them. Hiring ah, the right people and putting the right people in place is good. And I can usually tell Within a few, you know, months of spending time with somebody, if this person has what it takes to be something great, you know, the work ethic is there and the attitude is there and, and the mindset, growth, mindset is there. And so I, I, I, I think I have a knack for, for seeing if, if a person has what it takes or not to, to be a business owner. and so I think that's the largest part of it is knowing that and then, and then understanding what motivates them, what their life goals are, trying to set up opportunities and doing one on one trainings with them and really sowing into their lives to understand what, what, what's important to them. but it's a lot of times it's just creating the opportunities that they need to succeed and allowing them to fail within the organization as well. Like I love when these guys fail because that's the greatest teaching moment. It doesn't bother me at all. I'm not a yeller and a screamer and a jumper and all that kind of stuff. It's it's, it's that moment that we, I don't care about the mistakes either. I just want to say, okay, how are we gonna, how are we gonna fix this problem? Make sure it never happens again? How are we going to move on from this and be a better company? And when you've got the right guy in place and he's got the right mindset, those things come, come really easy.

How often do you spend time with your management staff

Well, like how much time are you spending with them? How often are you meeting with them and developing even your techs and your office staff and your salespeople and all and everybody.

So I meet with each of my management staff every week, and have a one on one. I'm not a big I'm not a big like scheduled meeting guy. We have one scheduled meeting a month. We're doing the EOS system. So we have an L10 meeting for every location every month. And these are big meetings where we discuss big problems and we, we give out our scorecards. but, but I'm not a big meeting guy. I like to do drive by meetings where, where I just spend time every week with, with our, with our, with m. Each one of our management staff, I still go into the office, every office, every week except the Florida locations. I spend a week a month there.

Okay? And then in each of these locations you got four, you got GMs running it.

And these guys are solid. They could own their own Businesses. but that's kind of my niche right now is taking guys that are solid in everything they do, but they don't necessarily want to or are not ready to own their own business right now. And all they have to do, because I put them in my system with my marketing and my accounting and the business plans and everything like that, I can just take a guy, drop him in a market, and as long as he's the right guy, he can be successful immediately because all he has to do is focus on installation, sales, and running the crews and the day to day operation of the company within my system.

Yeah.

And, and he doesn't have to worry about accounting and bookkeeping and, and marketing and payroll and you know, all the things that the vision.

What's next?

Yep. All he has to do is, is, all he has to do is run the play. Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna set the playbook out and we're gonna, we're gonna have a plan for the whole year and all you gotta do is take the snap and run the play.

Cool. Yeah, that's awesome.

You need someone to help organize your business. You need someone answering the phones

we were talking a little bit earlier. How do you. I think one of the biggest challenges, I mean one you mentioned it, you had that your first office manager that you hired, she's still with the company.

Yeah.

Which freaking awesome. That I think is the key hire for everyone. Like your first hire. Like, people will get technicians, they know that. But then it's like you need someone answering the phones. You need someone to help organize your business.

Dude. That the day I hired her and she took, I never answered another call with the company that day. Like, I, I freed up 15 hours of my week every week. And I was relentless at just using that time to develop business. I said, okay, I'm paying for this person to take these off my. That doesn't mean I, I spend less time doing what I'm doing. That means I've got 15 more hours a week to go develop business and sales and relationships.

Yeah, that's huge. So, I think there's a lot of businesses that still don't have that person hired. I'm just telling you right now, guys, that is the number like go get, go make that hire. And you're right, it does free up 15 hours of your time, but actually there's about 40 to 50 hours that they can do the stuff that you weren't doing that you should be doing.

Yeah, she paid for herself immediately.

And a lot of people are like, well, yeah, it's only 15 hours. What are they going to do? I'm like, I. I'll send you the list. Send me an email. I'll send you the list of all the stuff they're gonna do. Yeah, because it's a lot. And then, and this is where probably more people get hung up, is they can't replace themselves as a salesperson, a lighting designer, and they make up all these excuses and, you know, no one can learn design and no one can sell like me and everything else. And they hire someone, it doesn't work out because they didn't invest in developing them. And it's not that there was a bad person. It was just that they didn't give any training. So how the heck do you hire a salesperson in a market?

It's. It's tough. You know, I really have two strategies based on the revenue that the location is, is, making. So let's just say, let's just get to somewhat of a scale. 700,000 to 1.2 million. because I think a single GM can run a company and do all of the sales at less than. At really, at 1.5 million less. so basically you've got a general manager that. And most of my general managers came from being the best installer I have in any market. Like, they, I like that sales guy. I like a guy that's grown up in the business that they, that they scaled from one place to the, to the next. so they, they were, they started out as a installer and then. And then graduated to doing some sales and they had that ability. and I like that model a lot. That model doesn't work over about a million and a half dollars. You have to have dedicated salespeople. And really, at a million dollars, you really need dedicated salespeople.

After, after a million, I could see that GM getting thin.

He just can't run that many. he's all, you know, he's running the cruise in the morning, he's run the cruise in the afternoon, and he's doing sales calls all day. It slips.

Yeah.

Right. And so you need that dedicated sales guy. But it's, but it's hard unless you. Because hiring a sales guy day one and teaching him to design in three weeks. I was lucky working under Pat. Like, learning lighting design from Pat was great because he made me go on like 30 demos, and guys rarely do demos anymore. Like, like everyone in the lighting industry doesn't want to do demos, but they should.

it's part, it's part of our list. You got to go when you join our program, it's like if you haven't, if you don't know what you're doing, you got to go do 30 demos.

Yeah, I love doing the demos. Pat. I would go out with Pat every single night and do a demo and, and I, and I was there just to pack the demo kit. And that was back when it was full wire demo kits, you know, and halogen, you had 16 wires in a demo kit, you know. And and I would do demos and that's how I learned lighting design and and loved it. But, but guys that aren't companies that really aren't doing demos and we, and we do demos now, we don't do a ton of them because it's just a numbers game for me. Like I can do, I can personally do five demos a week if I wanted to. I want to sell a lot more than five landscape lighting jobs.

Yeah.

Right. And so it's just kind of a numbers.

Can't do it. Can't do a demo at 10:00am you.

Can'T do a demo at 10:00am and so, and so you know, the, the hiring and, and training that first lighting designer is a little easier now because we're, we're bringing a sales guy in and we're starting him with permanent. Right. And saying okay, you're gonna, you're gonna learn our systems and you're gonna learn permanent landscape lighting sales with permanent landscape lighting first. Like that's what we started like our, in Orlando. We started that guy first. And and Travis. I'm lucky to have Travis. and you, and you've met Travis Hogue. He's the. Oh yeah, yeah. He's my partner in Orlando. And, and he's a very talented sales guy. He's big picture guys all he's fantastic. And I was lucky to be able to partner with him, in that location. But he, he works hand in hand with the sales guy there. And and, and that's really the only reason that that guy's able to progress faster. Ah, but teaching lighting design and throwing a guy out there, that it's a process. It's honestly like a one year process when you hire a sales guy. I think it's the most difficult position that we, that we have to hire.

The disconnect between the sales guy and the install crew is a real disconnect

Yep.

and then the disconnect between the sales guy and the install crew is, is a real disconnect. Like you have to have systems in place that, that fix that, that, that, that problem. I'm still working through That I don't think I have the perfect answer to that question right now.

Well, that's okay. But like, do you think when you're, when you're looking at personality type, is it more designer mind or is it salesperson closer mind?

So I like the sales salesperson closer mind. I. And some guys are going to hate this. I don't like hiring the designer guy. Those guys can be a little eclectic and set in their ways and, and my way is the. Because I'm the designer. And it's, you know, it's, it comes with a level of arrogance that, that, that I think is, not beneficial. I, I like, I like a construction guy that's done construction sales or, or something like that has done sales before. Understands sales. But, but does it from more of a, a relationship direct to close.

Yeah.

Kind of thing. Like a guy that can, that understands construction. I think, pulling guys from that you can teach enough about design and then, and then they progress over time. That, that relationship skill and that, that understanding like construction and that sort of thing I think is more important.

Yeah, we agree on that. I think it's really hard to find someone that's willing to just ask for the sell and follow up and be that hunter, you know?

Yeah.

And like, that was the key to my success is like, we could sell outsell anyone, you know. And, I do think there's ways to do it where you can get a salesperson and if you have bigger jobs, you can hire a designer to be the lighting designer. Like, you can have both. There's big, landscape architect firms that do that, you know, and there are.

Guys that are like, talented lighting designers that I'm looking at. Like, I don't know, like, if I had to go compete against that guy, I might have to pull out the lighting designer, you know?

Yeah.

Personality.

Dress a little nicer.

Yeah, I'll wear some flowers in my shirt or something. You know, it's, I might have to do, you know, do that because those guys do resonate with clients and they're good at what they do. But I also find that those guys, they don't sell as much. Yeah, you know, they, they tend to overlook a client's needs and real wants and they skip straight to these elaborate designs. And those are place and time for all of that. But, but, you know, I teach our guys, let's, let's, let's start with what the client needs and find out their real motivation. And then let's design around that. Let's make sure. That we. That when we leave a property, the client got exactly what they wanted.

Yeah, I think I'm, I don't know. Maybe I'm more of a hybrid than I thought because, like, I'm going to ask those questions because I want to connect with the client, but then I'm going to, like, exhibit my expertise and be like, hey, you didn't mention anything about this over here, but would it be okay if I, you know, ran something by you?

Yeah.

And so I can. At least I'm doing a couple things. One, I'm creating some expertise. And, like, wow. No one. No one mentioned that because everyone else was just doing what we asked. But then also, I'm allowing them to actually say no to something at least right now. But I plant that seed, so they're like, you know what? No, not right now. Let's just do this other $20,000, and then later they'll come back and add the other 10.

Yeah, most. Most. Most clients will tell you, like, hey, you're. You know, I want to see what you. What you think, and then that gives you the ability to be able to do that. I think there's a place for all. All of it in the market. It's just, how much you want to sell?

Love it, man. Well, dude, I can't thank you enough for flying all the way out here from Augusta, Georgia, to Lehigh, Utah. Yeah, that is cool, man. This. I really appreciate you coming out. One day, we'll just put it out there in the universe. Right now, I will have a more professional podcast studio where it's not going to be an option. We're not going to do remote guests like, you want to be on the show? There's the address. We'll see you then. So thanks for coming out, man. This was a great conversation.

No, I loved it. I loved it.

Outdoor Lighting Perspectives is looking to hire some new employees

I'll leave you with this. Outdoor Lighting Perspectives is looking to. For some people to join our team. So we got locations all over the country. check us out, Outdoor lights dot com. And we'd love to. We'd love for you to join our team.

Yeah. And honestly, like, Kenny's looking to take over the world. So if you're one of those business owners that's like, yeah, actually, I don't like being a business owner, but I want to be that entrepreneur that he basically described. Like, I need some support. I don't want to take all the risk. I want Kenny to do all the financial risk. Then, hit Kenny up. How do people connect with you?

you can. How about I would normally give my cell phone out, but I don't know how many people on this podcast right now.

At least 10 million. So let's go.

Kenny: Light It Up Expo is coming up in Orlando next month

Kenny k@outdoor lights. com Kenny, k outdoor.

Lights. Com Kenny k@outdoorlights. com All right, well, thanks so much, Kenny. I appreciate you. man, a lot of stuff, guys for you to implement. So don't forget we got the Bonus Day, Thursday, February 27th at, Light It Up Expo. So come in early, hang out with the vendors. Lunch is on us. and then, light It Up. We'll, we'll start our sessions on Friday and Saturday. So go get your tickets now, guys. Thanks, Kenny. Appreciate you, man.

See you in a couple weeks.

Okay, let's go. Orlando, just a few weeks away. See everybody keep moving forward.