Lighting for Profits - Episode 188

This week on the show we welcome Joshua, a traveler, entrepreneur, and coach passionate about creating exceptional outdoor spaces and empowering business owners. He founded MasterPLAN Outdoor Living and YES Express Sales Academy, helping landscapers scale their businesses. As host of The Sales Made Simple Podcast, he shares insights on sales, growth, and success. An avid mountain climber, he embraces challenges with a drive for impact and innovation.

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Episode Transcript

Welcome to Lighting for Profits. It's the number one landscape lighting show in Pennsylvania

Welcome to Lighting for Profits.

All light, all light, all light. Powered by Emory Allen.

Here is your host, Ryan Lee.

Oh, light. All light, all light. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the number one. It's the number one landscape lighting show in Brodheadsville, Pennsylvania. Can you believe it, guys? I mean, we are really going worldwide here. got an awesome show lined up for you today. in fact, we get to talk about one of my favorite topics. And, can you guess what that would be? Can you guess? if you're looking to start or grow a landscape lighting business, heck, it could be any outdoor living business, anything like that. Today's your day. We're going to help you do that. We're going to educate, we're going to motivate, we're going to help you dominate in your area. So, got an awesome guest lined up. We got Mr. Joshua Gillo coming on with yes Express and sales. made simple podcast in. And, I met Joshua. I don't know, I feel like we've been friends online for a few years, but I was actually on his podcast, I think it was last year. And, I'm telling you, you're going to want to pay attention, you're going to want to take notes because this guy has, awesome stories, awesome experience, and an ability to just help people. And he's here to serve the world. So I'm excited to have him on the show.

Thank you guys for your support. We are getting closer to our 200th episode

before we have him on a couple announcements, couple things I want to discuss. First of all, thank you, guys. Thank you guys for your support. We are getting closer, inching toward our 200th episode. And, that. That blows my mind. Like, we just do one show a week, which means we're coming up on four years, five years, whatever it is. And, it's amazing. I'm thankful for you guys. I'm thankful for your support. Really, really appreciate you. not to, end on a bad note, but I do want to make you feel guilty if you have not given me a review. We're really trying to get to that hundred, that century mark with reviews on Apple. If you have not given me a review, do it now. I mean, I'm not saying don't listen to the show, but just click those five stars and write something nice, right? And if you haven't gotten value, then why are you listening? So, I. I just really appreciate you guys. Whether you give the review or not, I still appreciate you. And, again, we got Joshua Gillo coming on with, yes, Express. We're going to be Talking about all things business. We're going to talk about sales, we're going to talk about, the ups, the downs, all the things. But this guy's, this guy's on fire. And I love watching his stuff. I love listening to his stuff, because a lot of helpful things that are not just like an idea, but a way to get, implement and take, action.

Why offering good, better best could be killing your business over time

So, before we have him on, guys, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta share something with you, okay? So I wanna, I wanna go over this. And I titled my, My topic why offering good, better best could be killing you and your business over time. And, you might go, what? I thought, I thought you. I thought you were the good, better best guy. And I'm like, that's exactly why I wanna talk about what I want to talk about right now. Because it's not good better best. Guys, in fact, think about, like, do you really want to offer good, better best? Like, why. Why would you want to offer good, better best? Because don't most people want the best? Like, if you think about it, even, like, poor people, like, they probably want the best. They just can't afford it. You know, like, who wants just like an average steak? Who wants just an average life? And there are some people, but I'm just saying, the majority of people, we kind of want the best, right? And so if you offer a good, better best, and then someone has to choose the better or the good, then they don't really feel good about their choice. So what I like to call it, and it's just a simple change of language, is the triple option. Okay? So, it's a triple option. Close. That is completely different than the good, better best. Because triple option is just giving people options. And what's nice is when you give people options, there's something for everyone and they don't have to feel bad about the option that's best for them. All right? Can you see the difference in the language there? Good, better, best, and just a triple option.

If you implement and experiment with the triple option, you're going to find more success

So I want to first talk about why it makes sense to do the triple option. Because a lot of people will be going, And I know right now people are like, I ain't offering options. I've been doing this for 26 years. I've only offered one option. And then, look at me, I'm fine. I'm successful. And I'm like, good, then you can keep doing that. You don't have to listen. But I will tell you, if you'll implement and experiment with the triple option, you're going to find more success. Like, what if your closing rate could just go up 2%? What if you could just close one extra deal a month? If you just closed one extra deal a month at an average ticket of 10 grand, that's an extra 120 grand in revenue. And what's cool about these marginal deals is they pay out more than a regular deal. Because you already got everything figured out, right? You're already doing your single option, your whatever. Single option. Is that a thing? But your overhead's covered because you already have your thing. These are marginal deals, so your overhead's covered. So you're not going to get paid out at 20%. You're going to get paid out at like 65%. 65% of 120 is what, 75, $80,000. That's way more than just getting paid regularly. So this is important, guys. I want you to experiment with this. And don't just try it once. I'm m like, oh, yeah, see, I proved them wrong. It doesn't work. Like, a lot of times when you try something new, it doesn't work the first time. It doesn't because it doesn't go as planned. So you need to practice. Okay. When I was, this was about five years ago, I was at a marketing conference and Tony Robbins was, was the keynote speaker. He asked everyone in the audience, he goes, hey, who's got the most, he said, who's got the cheapest purse in here? Cheapest handbag? Someone had one for like 20 bucks and it was $10 and it was $5. There was someone that had one for like four, I think it was $4. And he goes over in the audience, he's like, so tell me about this. Where'd you get it? Oh, I got it at the Goodwill. Why is this so important to you? Why are you bragging about your four dollar handbag? And she had this real, this really good reason. She's like, well, it reminded me of my grandma and this and that. Like, it was a way deeper meaning than you would expect for like a four dollar little purse or whatever. And, she almost got like emotional talking about it. And then he's like, wow, okay, cool. And then he's like, who's got the most expensive one? And then there was like a hundred dollars and then a thousand, and then two thousand. It was like three thousand bucks or I can't remember the number. It was a lot of money for one of these, you know, purses. And, and she's like. Or you say, why is it so Important to you? And she said, well, it's because, you know, I'm in real estate and I wanted this. Like I told myself when I got to this number of commissions, I was going to reward myself with it. And I finally did it and I got this award and I'm the top producer and all this stuff, right? And it had significant meaning to her to where she was almost getting emotional. So it was crazy because in front of us we could see how someone with a $4 bag valued it the exact same way as someone that had like a 2500 $3000 bag, right? And the point and the reason I tell you that story is because we all value things differently. Okay? Even. And you guys have seen this. If you've done any lighting for a significant amount of time, you can go into a gated neighborhood of like 3 million dollar homes and you can go get a client, they'll pay you $50,000 to do the lighting in their front yard. And what does the next door neighbor have? They have solar lights and they think their solar lights are fine. Like they just value lighting differently, right? They could have a Ferrari, they could have a $500,000 car sitting in the driveway and still not value lighting. And you have to accept that. You have to understand that, okay? And yeah, you can build value. There's things you can do about it. But at the end of the day, like, that's where they're at. You gotta meet them where they're at. And so number one, just remember that people value things differently. And this is one reason why it's important for you to offer the triple option. Because what you think, and you're like, but I'm the expert, I know it's best. Like, I've done all the research. And that's true, right? But you still want to give people options. The second reason why you want to give people options is, I don't know why, but ever since I was a kid, I'm like fascinated by magic. And the funniest thing just happened. So this, a few days ago I was in Vegas for my dance, my daughter's dance competition. And we go out to dinner and this magician is like, you know, doing performances at these other tables or whatever. And my daughter and her friends were just like enthralled, like looking, oh my gosh, did you see that? Whatever. So then he comes to our table and he has, he has her pick a card and like write her name on it, whatever. And he goes, he goes, pick a random card or whatever. And out of Nowhere. I don't even know how this happened, you guys. This was the craziest thing, because it happened live in front of me. I go, oh, you should have picked the queen of diamonds. And I don't know where I thought of the queen of diamonds. I didn't see a queen. I mean, I just said a random card. And the random card I said was queen of diamonds.

What if you could control the option people choose, but make it their idea

He goes, are you talking about this queen of diamonds? And he pulled it out of his hand. Like, as soon as I said it, he goes, are you talking about this? And just pull. It was like. And I still can't explain how he did it, okay? But what he did is he did something. It made it seem like it was my choice. Like, I decided to say queen of diamonds, but he knew I was going to say that, right? And so that's. Is exactly what can happen with the triple option is what if you could control the option people choose, but make it seem like it was their idea? Because it was my idea that I chose the queen of diamonds. Like, he didn't. I, still, I can't figure that one out. But it was the illusion of choice. Okay? And I get it that some of you guys have never done it. You're like, no, it works.

Whatever.

But just. Just try this. Just, like, experiment with me. Just imagine for a minute that there was a better way, okay? I can assure you there's. You've left opportunities on the table, and. And this was just because you weren't willing to try and you didn't know. You didn't know the formula. So I want to give you guys a formula. Is that okay? and by the way, like, I can't stand good, better best. I can't. People are like, oh, yeah, Ryan does a good, better best. I'm like, oh, my gosh. That's like a mockery of what I teach. It's not good, better, best. It is triple option. So, just remember, like, I think most people, not everybody, some people are okay with average. I just heard Michael Bernoff speak. He has T shirts in his program. His book is called Average Sucks. Like, most people don't want to be average. Now, some people are fine with average, but, just change the language and change it from good, better, best to triple option. You'll be surprised how it also affects how you feel about it, too. Because a lot of people tell me, I don't want to do good, better, best because I only want to offer the best. And I'm like, I get it. That's exactly what you want to do the triple option. Not the good, better, best. So just remember, people like options, and there's not a bad option or, yeah, there's not a bad option you offer them. It's just the right option to them. Okay? So when you do this, you instantly appeal to more people. You come across as accommodating and as opposed to, like, coercing. Right. you don't want them to feel like you're forcing them. Like, hey, I did the research. I'm the expert. Do you know who I am? Like, this is. This is what you're going to do. Like, that's a different. Okay.

Price positioning matters. So number one, you need to figure out your main go to

And then here's the thing with the triple option, guys. And I call it price positioning. Price positioning matters. So I've had people tell me, yeah, it doesn't work, and I find out why and they go, okay, well, I offered something for ten thousand, twenty thousand and thirty thousand. Okay, you could have the perfect pitch, the perfect script. Everything's perfect. But the pricing, when you do 10, 20, and 30, it's not going to work. It's just not going to work. the pricing relative to each other is really what's important here. So number one, you need to figure out what your main go to is. Like, whatever your middle option is is going to be the one that most people choose. So you need to be really comfortable with that. Whether it's the type of product, the type of service, the margins, like, all that stuff, that's going to be your go to. So you're going to calculate your price, and that's going to be 1x. So if your price for a landscape lighting job, let's just say right now, is $20,000, that's your go to. It's $20,000 for this many lights on this design, Right? So you're going to come up $20,000. And then it's important that your next. Your premium. So we're going to call your. Your main one. You're just 1x. It's 20,000 times one. Then you're going to come up with your Premium, which is 2x. So you're going to times it by 2. So that premium option is going to be $40,000. Now, we're doing this for a couple of reasons. One, because we're creating a decoy offer to make 20,000 seem like, oh, that's not that much. But we're also doing it because some people like to drive Lambos and Ferraris. Like, some people like luxury items and they want to feel that status. They want to feel like, hey, what are most people doing? Oh, what my neighbor do? Oh, he did 20?

Yeah.

We want to do the 40. Like, you're depriving them of that opportunity to feel better about themselves if you're not giving them that option. So it's a decoy for the people that are wanting to do the middle one, but it's a. It's a status elevation for those that want it. So you're going to times it by two. And I know this is going to scare a lot of people, but you're going to times it by two. And then the lower one, we'll call it the basics. You have, like, basic, main, and premium. The basic has to be close to the main, so times it by 0.9. So if you're at $20,000, you're going to be at about $18,000. Okay. If it's too far, if it's 10,000, then that's too big of a gap, and people are going to be like, dang, So I could save $10,000. I can go on a trip to, like, Vel or whatever. Like, they're gonna start. That gap's too big. So you want the small gap at the bottom from, like, your. Your basic and your main, and then a huge gap at the top. And when you do this, guys, I'm telling you, it's like magic. It's like, somehow the guy knew I was gonna say queen of diamonds. They're gonna say the middle one because what happens? And I've seen this happen where people almost talk out loud. Yeah. I don't know. We're not crazy. Not spending $40,000 on landscape lights. Are you kidding me? Like, that's insane. Who does that? Let's just do the one that's only 20. And instead of them saying 20 and go, wow, 20. That seems like a lot. We're gonna have to get bids and find out that life could be worse. You're giving them the three bids. You're satisfying that internal desire for humans to get three quotes. Like, it's just. It's magical, right? And it shows them. It's like, hey, life could be worse. Life could suck. You're not spending 40. It's only 20. And you know what? If we're going to spend 18, that's a decent amount of money too. Let's just spend a little bit extra because we get the better warranty. You seem more excited about it. Seems like it's a better product, comes with some additional things. Let's go ahead and do that. And that's exactly what happens in their mind because I've seen them even say these things out loud. So I want to encourage you guys to try the triple option. There's some other tools and scripts and strategies that we give you inside landscape lighting secrets with like our, price marinade and some other things that happened before. But I'm just telling you, even without all that stuff, if today you just start this pricing strategy with three options. So whatever your main one is today, go create an offer that's twice as much and then go create an offer that's about 10% less. And I'm telling you, you're going to land more deals. Your closing rate's going to go up. And what's kind of fun is you're going to get some of those luxury ones, you're going to get some premium ones and be like, oh my gosh, I can't believe someone just paid me an extra $20,000.

Ryan: Stop doing the good, better, best. It's going to destroy your business

I would have never done that had I not listened to Ryan. So go do that, guys. Go make some extra money, keep some of that profit, reinvest it back in your business. I promise it works. I've got countless clients that are doing this and I want to encourage you to do that. So stop doing the good, better, best. It's going to destroy your life, destroy your business, and start doing the triple option. You guys won't regret it.

Emory Allen offers discounted contractor pricing for landscape lighting professionals

All right, guys, real quick before we have Joshua on, I do. I forgot to, do some stuff. Should we do some stuff? All right. What sets Emory Allen apart? Well, bulbs aside, they believe customer satisfaction should be the top priority. Always. Emory Allen goes out of their way to ensure lighting professionals have. Excuse me. Have access to the best light sources built with the highest quality components suited specifically for the landscape lighting industry. At the end of the day, it's what's on the inside that counts. So take advantage of Emory Allen's world class customer service. Get 10 off your first order. And all you got to do, guys, is email Tom g@emery Allen. com email tom gmry Allen. com and he will hook you up, mention you that, you heard about him here on Lighting for Profits and he will get you that discounted contractor pricing. A lot of people have been going to their website and I'm like, stop going to their website. I got you homies. Go email right now. Tom gmeryallen. com that's where you're going to get your best price. And I'm telling you guys, I've known Tom now for Going on five years, and I didn't even know who his company was before. Now more and more people are using them, and even manufacturers, other manufacturers are partnering them with them like they got an excellent product. Grateful for Tom, grateful for his family, grateful for Emory Allen. So go email him now, Tom g. @emory allen. com.

Ryan: Let's get Joshua Gillo on the show to discuss landscaping

all right, it's time, guys. Let me know if you're ready. And by the way, we're. I think Joshua and I decided we're going to make this a little interactive. So if you guys have questions, for Joshua, you want to try to stump him, you want to try to stump me, let me know, because we'll just make it interactive. So if you guys are ready, let's get the music going. Let's get Joshua coming on the show. What is up? What is up? Welcome, Joshua Gillo.

Ryan. Ryan. I can't wait, man, this is great. I love your. Your intro here so far, and, man, I could just start cracking that apart with you. That's amazing. I love it. You're giving some good advice there.

I would. I would love to get, your feedback on it, honestly, because, you know, it's some. Sometimes it's a controversial subject. Some people are like, no, I don't need that. I do it like this, and I'm awesome.

Yeah, you know what? And we get stuck in our ways. It's very common. We have certain patterns as humans that have worked, and we don't want to change them. We have paved roads down those. Those processes, and to take a dirt path would be kind of scary. Yeah, it would be. And, you know, so if we, as humans, we're always chasing after the certainty of life, the things that are certain, and staying away from the uncertain, right? Because of the fears that come with that. The kind of information that you just shared with your triple option, man, is, it's something that we learned right after Covid. You know, we sell. Our average project is about $250,000. And it's. What's amazing is we were offering one option, the best option, right? Because we thought everybody just wanted the best option. And here's what we ran into. Some people it absolutely landed on. And other people are absolutely pissed off because you know what the best option was? Typically above budget, right? Because budget. Who wants to listen to budget? Especially as designers, you're like, why do we want to listen to Budget? That's no fun. It's like handcuffs, man. I hate that stuff. So we would go into a project and show them the best, because that's everything. They asked for, for outdoor living space. It's everything. The pool, the deck, the patio, all that stuff. The landscape lighting, of course. And then we'd show it to them and they'd get drool over it. And then we'd wait a little bit longer and then show them pricing later after they fell in love with it. And it felt like they were kind of bait and switched and oh man, like during COVID it wasn't a problem because everybody was just taking orders. They didn't have to sell anything. During COVID right? What it was, you just, if you had a business, people were just screaming at you, take my money. And then all of a sudden it stopped. A lot of guys felt that, that drop off and all the big pent up demand and then to push through Covid and all the demand that was, that was actualized and realized afterward left a big hole. And what we found is some of the clients were coming in and they were like, well, I'm glad you have these ideas, these big ideas. But, that's not what we asked for. We actually asked for, something that was more closer to our budget. And we're like, this is like, we've been at this for over 25 years at the time. And I'm like, this is the first time clients are responding differently. And again, back to that dirt path. Right. We had to go back and rethink everything. It's like, wait a minute here. How are we handling our clients?

Clients are want to get three options when choosing a landscape lighting project

So during that process, we realized one major thing is that clients want options. And if they got to get. You said it perfectly in your intro. Clients are want to get three options. They're trained by their grandparents, their parents, their teachers, their, their pastor. Everybody tells them they get three questions, quotes for everything, so they know they're getting a good deal.

Yeah.

So they, because they don't know the outdoor living world, they don't know that stuff. So anyway, we decided to say, look, we're going to do a triple option. We call it good, better, best. I'm sorry, we don't call it to them that, that's our internal dialogue.

But triple options, I'm calling you to repentance. so having that option, I'm confident you can come up with a better name. It doesn't have to be triple option, but I'm m confident you can come up with something.

Oh, we, I will now that I'm thinking more about it. It's good because you put it in perspective. I like that. But, what we found is the effectiveness of having Three options for a client to make a decision. What Ryan's telling you is absolutely true. Our closing rates started to go through the roof just with that small detail. I mean many others, but that small detail really made a difference. And here's the craziest part, Ryan. We see clients and again, average project, quarter million dollars we see clients will give them something for like 180, 250 and like 350 to your point, like a big spread on the high side. Every one besides maybe like a very, very minute amount. They go with the middle or high end option or a hybrid between them. And they normally were going to spend less because we always want to drop one below their budget on their budget and way above.

I, like it.

Find a gap between there and. What's amazing about that is it's not because you can make more money. That's, that's all. After you do a great job of serving your client. The reality is you're solving a major problem for them because they're like, well, I got to get three different ideas. What if you gave them three different designs? Different meaning one simpler one a little bit more complex and one really elaborate. And you design it where you design the elaborate one and you simplify it twice so you're only doing one design extra hour worth of work or half hour worth of work. And you have three different proposals for them within that same structure so they don't have to go to three people. You are all three. You're below their budget, you're on their budget and you're way above it. And the people who want that $3,000 handbag, they're going to buy that because they have to feel inside that they can afford it. And it's success to them. Them, you know, 80% of what we do, guys, landscape lighting or outdoor living, it's emotional. It's emotional, not logical. Think about it. We didn't have lights forever around our house ever, right? Then all of a sudden, landscape lighting became this thing and they became very easy to get and more affordable. And then LEDs came out so they're easier to wire, all of this stuff. And I didn't grow up with lights around my house. I had one next to the door and maybe one in the garage and that was it. But you know what? My house now, I've got hundreds of lights around it. I love lighting. It's beautiful. It's the only one in my little town of Broadheadsville where it's lit up. You go by and you're like, Whoa. And it's not because I want to stand out. It's because I love it. I love being inside my house and looking out the windows all winter when it's dark and dreary and having it pulling my heart outside. That's what your clients want, too. They just don't know it yet. They don't want to look at it. A wall of blackness. They don't want to be depressed with that when they've got something beautiful to look at coming from the trees, from the ground, from all over the place. It lights their soul up. It makes life more fun. It makes it more enjoyable. So what you do is not basic. What you do is quite amazing because you're improving people's lives through this. We see it all the time. All of our projects, every single one, have a very extensive lighting package on them, because without it, you can only use it half the day.

When did you develop this, this mindset of this personality? Like, you're talking about sales as feelings. And how does it make them feel? I think when a lot of people get started, they're like, okay, my product. So I got me use these fixtures, and those cost 2,000. It's very. Just like, gadgets and fixtures and like, oh, they'll say design, but I don't know what. I don't even know if they know what they mean when they say design. They're. They're selling products and services. Where you're talking about is you're selling an experience, an outcome, a feeling. Yeah, yeah.

Because in the beginning, dude, I've been at this now almost 30 years. And I started when I was three anyway. And so what I found in the beginning, it was all about revenue, right? I got bills to pay. I didn't know anything about business. You know, I don't know about you, Ryan, but I'm still waiting for the irs. After I sent in my form to get, my. My number, my ein number, I'm still waiting for that whole packet that tells you how to run a business that never came in the mail. Did you ever get one? Because I certainly didn't get it. So they say, oh, here's how you pay taxes. Excellent. Now you go figure it out. And I didn't have a. I don't have a business background.

You go from m selling to serving. That's what it is. You mentioned Tony Robbins earlier

I mean, I was. I graduated high school and. And started out, just started cramming because I tell the story later. But anyway, I started in garden center, my parents and all that stuff. And people started asking about us building stuff. And we started building stuff, like kind of just fell into this industry. It wasn't like I went to school. I don't think many of us do. I think we're like, we don't want to work for somebody. This looks like something we can do. I love working with my hands. Let's go do it.

Yeah.

Next thing you know, you're in a business and you're like, but I got bills. Then I want to buy a vehicle and then I want to buy more vehicles and I want trailers. Then I want skid steers, I want excavators, I want all these things. And pretty soon you start seeing all the expenses, this overhead creeping up. I need help, I need a secretary. I need systems.

What are systems?

I don't got time for that. I'm the one selling. Nobody else knows how to sell. I'm the only one that's ever done it. Like this thing just starts to expand because you're good at working with your hands. And what happened is I was so focused in the beginning on revenue, right? It was so much about, I need bills to pay, I need to get revenue that I disconnected. I was selling from my brain, from my head. And what I realized at a certain point, because I kept hitting that million dollar wall, I couldn't break past million dollar in revenue, could not break past this thing. And what shifted it all for me. You mentioned Tony Robbins earlier. I've been on a ten year personal, growth journey since I started working with him and many others now. But my point is, he started teaching me how once I get out of my head and get into my heart, how it changes everything. You go from m selling to serving. That's why my little thing behind a TV says, you know, serve, not sell. Because when you start coming from a place of, building a relationship from your heart, not focusing on revenue from your head, it changes the game. We all dream about having a business that constantly sends new referrals our way. Right? Our referral machine. We do really good job for Mrs. Jones. Mrs. Brown shows up. Mrs. Brown does a great job. Then we have Mrs. Smith show up. Like, you don't even have to advertise to these people. These people are talking to each other at work or when they're playing pickleball or whatever it might be, and the next thing you know, you're on the tip of their tongue because they felt something when they worked with you. Emotional again. They felt something. You cared. You cared about if you called back. You cared about their experience. You, cared about all those things. The problem is that Most contractors are so focused on paying the bills that they miss that massive, massive detail and they wonder why they struggle to get leads and they're paying Facebook out the nose for crappy leads and closing two out of ten at the best. Our average in our industry, believe it or not, is 2 to 3 out of 10. 20 to 30% close rate. That is insane. When you think about 7 to 8 of those bids that you went out on, you will not get, and you know it.

Yep.

What do you, you talk about robbing your family? You talk about never having enough time to spend with them or have enough time to spend with. To work on your business. We all talk about that idea of owning a business. Most own their job because of efficiencies. Right. Well, that's the end of the. That's what it is.

I. I love your serve first attitude mentality and all that because I used. I mean, I'm the same way. It used to be about, like, well, no, if I don't sell this $10,000 job, like, how am I going to, like, pay the people my. My team? And like, you're stressed. Right. But when. When it does shift to, like, hey, how can I serve my client at the highest level? Dude, everything is. I'm not saying it. It's easy. Like, you still have issues in your business. Like, there's still challenges. But sales, let's just call it sales, becomes easy because you're there to serve them and you're there to help them make the right choice. And if. If right now only 2 or 3 out of 10 people are moving forward with you, and then that means that other people either are not going forward with anyone or they're going with someone who knows less about business than you and is not going to take care of their customer, then if you're not willing to go all in on yourself and get better at that experience and overcome objections and help them make the right choice, you're doing a disservice not only to your family, but to your own team members, to your. To your client. Like, you must hate people unless you're going to, like, start with your heart. So, yeah. Well said.

Thank you.

You need to manage objections from the day one phone call or conversation with client

And you mentioned something about objections. And this is one of my big pet peeves, because I struggle with them most of my career. When I first started out, the first 15, 20 years, I was constantly afraid of the objection, afraid of getting all the way to the end of doing a design and a proposal and sitting down multiple meetings and multiple changes and revisions, all to sit down finally. And have that conversation around what it's going to cost. And then holding my breath when you drop the number and just waiting for them to come up with one of three different things to say. Like, that's more than I thought. M. Don't want to do it right now. Need to think about it.

Like, we didn't know they were going to say these things.

I want to. I need to talk to my cat. Right? I need to go pray on this. I need to go make. Meditate on this. Like, all of these objections. And here, Brian, this is, this is what I learned. Listeners out there, get your pencils out. This is what I learned. You need to manage objections from the day one phone call or conversation or integration with that client. Don't wait until you have a design and a proposal sitting on somebody's table and then holding your breath, thinking, I, hope they say yes, I hope, I hope this. If you're not sitting there with a design and a proposal on the table with at least an 80 to 90% surety that you are the right fit for them not getting ready for their money, you are the right fit for them and that everything that they've asked for is in here physically, actually, like, feature, wise and emotionally. You are playing this whole game of business wrong. Because you can go back, Ryan. We trace it all the time. That's why we have these sales systems. That's why we, we've created this. We created it for my own business because I was tired of going out and Talking to. To 10 people and getting four, four or five was my good time. And I'm like, what would happen if I could figure out a way that by the time I'm ready to turn a key and burn the gasoline and get to this person's house and spend detailed amount of time with them that I would have at least an 80 to 90% surety of being able to bring that client home. How can I do that? Said if it's impossible? I had never seen anybody do it. So I hired a sales coach and started designing systems for the company and trying and testing them. And eventually, within a year, we doubled revenue. Doubled revenue in one year. Same amount of leads, double revenue. And I'm like, whoa. All right. Well, we just got lucky, right? Just a lucky year, whatever. So I had some friends around the country. I started training them for free just to see if it worked. They were doubling revenue. And I'm like, wait a minute here, we've got something. This is amazing. So let's. Let's figure out how we can bring this to the industry. Because, I'm a kind of person that once I have something, I want to share it with others. So I'm like, all right, how do we do that? That's why we built our sales mastery system in order to help people in the outdoor living landscape and, Hardscape Industries, you know, get to a 75 plus percent closing rate. But the way it starts, how you get around those objections is to never have them at all.

Love it.

And that sounds insane, right? People think, yeah, sure, Josh.

Yeah.

Okay, who is this guy Ryan's got in the show? He's telling you not to worry about objections. I'm telling you right now, guys, it starts back from the first call. If you aren't setting expectations from day one, things like what things are going to cost, budgets, things like that, and there's the right way and the wrong way to do that, you can be saying everything right in the wrong order and you'll end up with a low close rate. Right. A lot of people aren't saying what they need to say. They don't want to have the budget conversation. They don't want to have the conversation around having both decision makers there for higher ticket stuff. Not maybe for a five or $10,000 project, but for hire. Because I don't know about you, Ryan, you're a married man. Right?

Dude, I would say even with $10,000 decisions, because again, you don't always know. Just because they're in a gated neighborhood, you don't know who they are, how they make decisions. So I'm still, I'm still with you on that.

Yeah. So, I mean, you're a married man. I've been married 20 years this year. And I tell you, Ryan, I don't know about you, but I'm not going to go out and spend twenty, thirty, fifty hundred thousand dollars without my wife being part of that conversation.

Nope.

Right. And anybody that says they're going to, it's probably lying to you. So you don't want a partner.

Just so you know, when we meet up, it's important that both decision makers are present.

See, now that. Exactly that's our target.

It's all in how we frame that conversation

Now it's all in how we frame that conversation. Because if we say, for instance, Ryan, I require you and your wife to be there when we come out to meet, or I require the next phone call for you both to be there, or that's our policy, what are you likely to say to somebody that tells you that about anything?

No, we're busy.

You're jackass. Why would I do that? Like, you're not going to tell me what to do. I'm spending money with you. Like, there's. Immediately, there's a wall. You feel a wall?

Yep.

Immediately there's judgment in a wall. Human nature. How do we get around it? The way we get around it is by simply reframing what we need and putting it so the client can see and answer the number one question going through their mind. And that question is, what's in it for me?

Yep.

Everything rides around that question. Specifically in contracting. Everything else in life, too. We're all thinking in our own heads. We're animals. We're all thinking in our heads, how do we gain from this? What's in it for me? And if we can make it very clear and have our clients burn very little to no calories to see how whatever we're offering is going to be in their best interest, we get a green light and move forward. It's when they have to process why it makes sense for them to listen to you and follow what you're saying. That puts the brakes on things. So the way we'd reframe that if we wanted. Both decision makers is, guys, look. We finally get the very best results. When both you and your husband are at this next meeting, we're gonna go through a lot of really cool stuff, and I don't want you guys to miss anything.

It depends on what context you're coming into this with

All right? So can you both, check your calendars and see if you're both available? It's a lot different than I require. Yeah, and who's not gonna say yes to that unless they're flat out lying to you?

Yep.

It's all in how you frame it. It depends on what context you're coming into this with. If you're thinking that you're trying to control your clients, are you trying to be the hero and come in and save the day? Are you trying to be the guide and guide them to the right solution? And if you're trying to be the guide, then you have to be open to the idea that maybe you aren't the right solution for them.

I love it. Well, right there, what you said at the end, a lot of us have. Because we're thinking with our head, we want to be the hero.

Hm.

And we should come from here. We should be the guide. And the guide serves from the heart. And the guide is like, no, it makes sense for both of them to be there because they're going to have questions. Of course they're going to want to talk about it, like, and who's going to.

Who's going to. Who's going to be able to answer those questions best if the wife shows up and the husband's working or vice versa? It doesn't matter who's going to be able to answer those questions most accurately after the call, if the wife takes the call and the husband's like, all right, well, how much electricity is this landscape lighting package going to cost per month? It sounds expensive. I see all these lights around the house, and she's like, I didn't ask that question. I don't know. how long are these things going to last? What's the word? I don't know. He wasn't talking about those things. I, didn't even. And pretty soon they get to a point where they're both stuck because she feels guilty she didn't ask, and he's got questions that she can't answer. So if you don't have both decision makers there and have a process in which you bring them through in order for them to feel the most value, then they're going to have a lot of questions and you're letting them go. But when you have that context ahead of time and you're setting that expectation of them both being part of this entire endeavor, this journey, 99% of people want to be part of it together so they can make a great decision.

Yeah, love, it.

And when they do, they can ask their questions, and then they can both get that built rapport with you. Not just one. Then you have the wife or the husband trying to sell them on this amazing guy that came out, or girl that came out and talked about landscape lighting. Then you're putting the onus on them to sell you, and they're not going to do a good job.

Well, you know what? When we started doing this, because same thing, it was like, man, we'd get to these sales opportunities, and then it was just one spouse. And, like, I got. They got to talk to him. Like, what are you going to say? Like, no, you don't. Like, just.

Yeah, B.S.

I call B.S. you're rich. But, so we started doing that, and then you still have people on the phone say, oh, well, you know, my husband, you know, he works or whatever. And so my office manager would just schedule the appointment. And then I found out that all we had to do was again, by asking questions and finding out, like, really what that meant they didn't know that we were willing to meet at 7 o'clock at night at their house. Like, but they were saying, oh, my husband told me to call and my husband put me in charge of this project. Ah, he doesn't need to be here. And so we took that for face value, but that didn't have to be face value. What it really meant was guy was working, the guy was paying for these, the bills. You know, that, that's understandable too. So we just started saying, oh, no worries, I totally get that. just so you know, we're available, ah, nights and weekends, so that way we can meet with you both. And they're like, oh, that's great. It literally wasn't like contrived like, hey, let's make a plan and make sure only one of us meets. It's just that they, they didn't know what was possible on our end. So when we made our sales available and again to your point, educate them on the process, inform them throughout and, and keep them in the loop, then it was no problem. They're like, oh, we can totally make sure we're both available. And they appreciated that.

They do. They do.

That's awesome. Well, I love it because personally I, I teach similar things because I don't like overcoming objections. I don't want to get to the point where there's a 20 chance they're going to say yes. And I'm like, please say yes. And they're like, we want to think about it. And I'm like, wait, what am I supposed to say? M. Do I agree with them? Wait, no, I don't want to agree with them because then that means they're right. Like, I don't want to get to that. Like, I just want to like, give them this beautiful experience, all the right reasons to say yes. And if, if we are the right fit, which we should be if we've made it to that point, like, and I care about them and I'm serving them, they're going to say yes. They might go, they might have some questions, you know, and we can overcome those questions, but they're not objections at that point.

Another perspective that I think will help your listeners is this idea of going for no

Another perspective that I think will help your listeners is this idea of going for no. We think as salespeople, our goal is, our target is yes. We always want them to say yes, and that's our big target. But if they can't get rid of their objections, their nose early and in a very safe environment, they're just going to pen them up until they blow up at the end. Because you're like, we're just Going to wait. It's free for him to talk or her to talk. So we're just going to let him talk. Maybe they'll surprise us, and then by the end of all your time wasted, they can say no. Or worse yet, the false yes, yeah, we'll get back in touch. And you never do, right? That's just because they don't like confrontations. Humans, most humans don't like confrontation. So they'll lie to your face and give you that little white lie of a false yes. So they. They don't have to deal with a confrontation or they don't want a pushy salesperson popping out of you. You know, I remember starting out and reading all the sales books, going to seminars, trying to figure this whole sales thing out. And I remember so clearly, dude, I remember getting a book, and I remember which book it was, but I remember talking about objections, and it said, if a client says, or a prospect says that, that's too much, or I want to wait. Here's the two things you say, right? One is like, so what's really holding you back? And just waiting, right? And then you're sitting there, and I'm like, all right, I got it, I got it, Ryan, this is going to be great. I got this big project I got to go out on Friday night to meet with. And I know they're kind of price conscious. I know about where they're at. I'm going to bottle that one up. I'm going to chamber it is what I call it, chamber, ready to go. And I'm going to sit there and wait. And when they say that, that's what I'm going to ask. And I'm going to be able to turn it all around because this guy in a book said, you say this, and all of a sudden they go from, I'm not spending a dollar to just taking you right to their bank account and saying, take as much as you want. It's like. It is like this key to the kingdom. And I'm like, all right, good. So I'm all excited. I go out there and I meet with them. I do this whole presentation. Everything is great. Exactly what they've asked for. Budget is a little higher than what they wanted it to be, but it is what it is. At the very end, I'm waiting for them to say it, and they say it, you know, like, yeah, well, we have to think about it. We have to think about it. And I'm sitting there thinking, yes, Now I finally have this one objective busting question. that'll change everything. And I ask him the question, and they look at me like, no, we're still going to think about it. And I'm like, damn, now all right, now what? I like, I got nothing else. That's all I got. I'm like, okay. And I pack up everything and I drive home and I'm like, they look, they look like they were being honest and they seem like nice people.

Yeah.

I'm still waiting. That was eight years ago. I'm still waiting for the phone to ring. Right.

People are still going to call me back, too, from like 20 years ago.

The point. My point is, though, I haven't found one objection busting question that's going to change the entire perspective of how people are going to go from. I don't want to. So sure. Here's my checkbook. Like, that process starts from day one. It's not something that you just have at the end. It's not like an aspirin. You can fix a problem, like with a headache. It's not like what you can do. You've got to start in the beginning with this and set those expectations and knock those objections out all the way through your entire sales process. So when it comes time to show them, the proposals, a. There's no that their expectations are lined up. You already know what budget is your proposals offer below, on, and above. So they have choices. And you've listened well because you're a great listener, not a talker. You should only be talking 20% of the time and listening 80% of the time to your clients and have good questions to ask them. And if you're not, if you're the one that's constantly talking, you're the one that's buying your projects. It's that simple. And if you don't know if you're talking a lot, take a little microphone with you or just put on your, your voice memo app on your phone and record your session and go back and listen and cringe, because I know I did when I hired my sales coach years ago. And he's like, hey, do that. And I listen. I, listened to it. I couldn't send it to him. I was so. I was so appalled by how I sounded. It was so bad. Oh, my God, it was so bad. And so I had never done that before. Like, I didn't. I never knew what came out of my mouth. I just knew that either it worked or didn't. And most of the time, majority of time, it didn't work. So something had to change, But I didn't want to change. I wanted everybody else to change. That was the problem.

Until I realized that I had to be the one that initiated that change

Until I realized that I had to be the one that initiated that change. Then everything started to change. But the reality is that we have to set expectations early in our process to. If we want to get rid of objections later.

All right, you're throwing down a bunch of gold right now. I'm taking notes. I'm trying to, like, take note because I learn, and I'm trying to think of the next question to ask you. At the same time, I'm like, wait, which is this for me or is this for him?

One of the biggest problems advisors face is talking 20% of the time

But one thing that I want to ask you about is talking 20% of the time, because that's. That's a huge problem. And it's easy because we get so excited about what we have. It's like, we're like these little puppies that just jumped out of a birthday cake, and we're like, oh, my gosh, look how cute I am. You know, like, you're gonna love me. And, like, they don't care about that. Like, you. And number one, you also need to find out, like, the. The. The. The. The true. Really good guides, the helpers, the. The. The trusted advisors, they know this, that they're not selling anything, and they don't know. They don't know how to, like, they create a gap, and it's like finding, okay, where are you at? Why. Why are we even meeting today? You've been in this house 10 years, and now you're deciding to add lighting? Like, if you don't understand where they're coming from, you can't build the bridge, that value bridge. So talk to us a little bit about that. How do we talk less? How do we ask more questions? How do we build that value?

Man, you're playing in my wheelhouse now. I don't know about you, dude, but I'd rather talk less and sell more, because I get, I can listen to myself talk for a long time, but it's not nearly as effective as if I ask a question and then pause with silence. We call it stfu. You can figure out the last part. Point is that when you say a question, when you ask a question, we need to pause. I call a pregnant pause. Because you're just waiting for something to happen. And the client will feel the need, the urge, the push to say something. But if you're talking and talking and talking and talking and talking. Ask them a question, cut them off and talk and talk and talk and ask another question. And hear half their answer. Don't let them fully finish. And keep talking about how great your service and your product and how great you are in the market. Yeah, they get tired of that real quick. They don't want to be sold. They want to make a decision on their own. You want clients to sell themselves. You don't shouldn't have to sell anything to them.

Ryan Jones: We need to define success with our clients

So when you ask great questions, like for our system, we start off trying to get to what we call our hot button. What is the number one thing that they must have in this project for it to be considered a success for them? Because they might come to us with 17 different things. All these things they want in their backyard. They might want a deck, a pool, a pergola, patio, water feature, lighting, landscaping, seating, wall, fire pit, you name it. That's great. But not all of them are equal. Right? They might have. In a landscape lighting world, they might be. I want to do my entire property. I want to do it from the barn, out to the house, out the driveway, up the trees, around the pool, around the back of the house. I want this tied to that. Safety, lighting, regular lighting, all this stuff. But there's one of those systems that is most important to them, and maybe it's the safety aspect. And we can build from that, but we need to know what that is. Once we know what that is, we can build the design around that. This way we can always come back to that part. That's how we can get a higher close rate. We can always come back and say, well, Mrs. Jones, you mentioned that your hot button, in this case, your most important, part of this project was the lighting around the barn. Because you want to be able look out of your house and see that all through the entire year. Did I get that right? Well, yeah, it's exactly. That was my primary reason for starting this whole project. So if you take that piece out, Mrs. Jones is going to feel like there's no project.

You're screwed. Yeah.

Yep, exactly. So. But you need to know that as a professional, as a guide, you need to know that that is her objective. And then we go into deeper parts with, getting to the why of why they're doing the project. You know, we can future pace and get a sense of what success. We need to define success with our clients. What does the space have to look and feel like for you both decision makers to know this project was an absolute success? And we just wait stf such a question. Right. And we just quiet and they talk and they talk and they talk. And they talk back, back and forth to us, back and forth to us. Because they're not used to that kind of a conversation, especially with outdoor living or lighting or those kinds of things. Like, these guys just show up and do stuff. It's more like the reality. What they're expecting. Everyone listening. What they're expecting in their sales process is a, hey, what do you want? All right, how much money you got? you available Tuesday? All right, cool. I'll be there. Boom. That's their expecting.

And then. And then it's. They're expecting, like, a presentation. All right, we're going to sit on the couch, you're going to present, and then we're going to do that three times, and we're going to go with the best price. Yep. So it is different. It's. It's a definite, definite shift when all of a sudden you're asking them questions like, oh, you mentioned the barn. Why? And. And even go to layer deeper. Why is that so important to you? Yeah, you know, like, then. Then you start getting to the good stuff.

Well, dude, then you know what happens? Then all of a sudden she says, well, when I was a little girl, my grandfather had horses, and he had a big light out by his barn. And when I used to go out there at night and read my books when he worked, with the horses. And you get into these long stories. And now we're back to what I originally said. 80% of this is emotional. She's trying to bring her childhood back up in her home. So her girls have the same experience.

Right.

Those are the things that they don't write on their sheets when they write into you. They don't write that on their questionnaires. Like, oh, yeah, I want to recapture a time of my life when I was a kid with my grandpa. They don't do that, actually. It's a question on our questionnaire, but you can get to that. But we got to do that. We've got to become skilled guides, detectives, and get down to those levels. Because once you know that Ryan and listeners, once you know those things and they finally divulge and they finally realize and discovered them with you. That's part of the discovery process. They discovered them with you. Who do you think they feel most comfortable, with moving forward on this journey to get those things? Another contractor who's 20% cheaper that doesn't know anything about this, who just tried to sell them M lights or sell them a backyard, or the person who had the skill set in order to Unpack stuff like that so they can get to the point of why they really want to do it. Because some people don't know why they want to do it. They just want to do it. But when they know, you become significantly more valuable on this journey with them, again, serving them as the guide. This is our target. This is what we're trying to do. We're not just trying to sell lights or backyards. We're trying to serve our clients in the highest level. Because the last thing we want is for them to do this project, spend all this money, and not absolutely love it when it's done. To have any regret in their heart, that'd be a shame.

Let me make sure I got this right.

What's the number one thing that needs to happen for a project to be successful

So, hot button. What's the number one thing that needs to happen for this project to be a success? And then follow up that with, like, why. Why is that so important? I mean, you can. You can kind of peel. You can kind of take this into different layers as well.

We call it peeling the onion. And I'm touching on, like, 1% of how we work through this because, things for another. Another layer would be when you get into what does the space have to look and feel like to know it was a complete success. Success. When you get to that layer, a lot of times you'll get words like, I want a space in my world is I want a space that's comfy, cozy, clean. Well, Ryan, can you draw me a picture of what comfy looks like for you in your backyard?

I would say, tell me more. What does that mean?

Because comfy to you looks completely different than comfy to me. Right. And if that's the case, we're. We're in gray. We don't want to be in gray area. We want to be in black and white and understand. So. So, Ryan, tell me a little bit more of what comfy looks like for you outdoors. Well, it could be something like, I think of, like, a nice. A nice couch, something, that I could put my feet up on, have a glass of wine, like, a little stand next to me. I could be looking out at the west and see the sunset. I love sunsets. And watch the dogs running and the grandkids in the backyard. And all of a sudden, you're like. If you're a designer, you're taking these notes down. Because now she's giving you your design. she's giving. Giving you the design on a silver platter. And all you have to do is listen. Not be talking, listen. Capturing her exact word from phrases and then design it that way. And then when you design it and you lay it out and everyone's in 3D now. So 3D design. You lay it out and you're like. She's like, holy moly. My patio. I'm sitting there on a nice comfy couch, my feet up with a glass of wine next to me. I can see my grandkids and I can see my dog and I can see this. That's me sitting there versus some two dimensional design. It's like, yeah, there's your 16 by 20 patio. That's all we ever do. And, six lights.

Yeah.

Because that's our package. She's gonna be like, I'm gonna spend 40% more for that guy. Listen to me. But we have to be curious. We have to be detectives. We've got to slow it down. We've got to talk to less people and go much deeper. We're building relationships. Revenue comes from relationships. First it's relationship.

I, like it. So we're talking about what, what needs to happen, why it's so important, and how are they going to feel once this project's complete. Like, it's all about emotion. I love it. All the feelings.

It is. And you got to be careful with the why questions, because why questions can feel accusatory depending on the tone. Example. Hey, Ryan, why do you want lighting in your backyard Versus Ryan, why is lighting so important for you outside? Same basic question, different tonalities. We have to be very aware of how we're speaking when it comes to our customers because they can take it. You know, you're basically peer to peer. You're saying something and gets absorbed on the other side. We've got to make sure that we're. Our intention is clear. We have to be very aware of how we present ourselves. Very purposeful.

So good.

Ryan Light: It's important to have clients say no to things

you mentioned go for no.

Could you.

Do you mind just giving me one or two examples of how we do that? Because, and I, and I agree with you wholeheartedly, but most people think, well, no, I got to get them to say yes over and over and over. And like, of course we want them to say yes, but why expand on that principle a little bit? Why it's important to have them say no to things and then how we get them to do that.

Absolutely. So what, we want to make sure for sure we know we're going for no's. That even. That's pretty funny. Rhymes. when it comes to things like budget, when it comes to overall scope, when it comes to materials, things like that. So for instance, if you charge for design and you're doing bigger designs, you should be charging for designs. No freebies. Right. And it can be a deposit toward the project. It's a great way to start building momentum for a client that, to go with you anyway. When it comes to your design deposit, you're telling them when that first phone call, right, your discovery call, you're going to be talking to them about getting both decision makers and you're going saying, look, my, my design fee, my design deposits are somewhere between 2,500 and 3,500, depending on the intricacy of the project. Whatever your numbers are, fill in the blank. Does that work for you both? And if they're like, no, I don't, I don't think paying for design makes any sense. Good. We don't need to move forward. That's that simple. Right? We're going for the help. You're like, well, yeah, makes perfect sense. Of course. It's great. Good. We don't gotta deal with that at the first meeting. It's already done.

Yep.

And if you have a client, Right. That won't give you a budget. We have a three step process. We get budget every single time. All of our students do. We're talking high ticket, you know, average of 50,000 to a million dollar projects. Right. So it's like this whole span of things, but we want to get the numbers to come from them. If we say, oh yeah, budget for this project should be $250,000. And they're like, okay. M m sure they're giving that. Yes. You're like, good, I got a good signal. Their head's moving this way, not this way. I got them good. This could be amazing. The problem is in their mind, they're shaking their head because they don't want confrontation again. So they shake their head. Yes. Let's see what this guy comes up with. It doesn't matter. I mean, if I like it, I'm still not going to do it. But I'm curious to see what he's got. I got two other guys coming. They're not charging me for design. So do I got, what do I got to lose here? Yeah, I want to see what he's got, but I'm not sure I'm going to do it. Different side of the story, Ryan, is if that client's. When you work with them and you get to a point where they actually divulge a range of budget that they're comfortable to work in, let's say it has to be our end game. But when it comes from them, when the genesis of those numbers come from your client, there's a significantly higher likelihood they're going to stick with them because they came from them. So our goal as sales guides is not to tell them what the budget's going to be, but to get them to give us what that budget is. Again, we have three step process. We get it just about every time. And if we don't get it, here's where the other note comes in. If we don't get budget from them and they just don't know, we ask them. So, you know, it's a whole process which we go through. It's really simple. But I don't, I don't have time for that right now. But we get to a point of like, hey, what do you hope this will cover? And they say, well, we don't know what it covers. Well, you give us a budget in your questionnaire of 25 to $50,000, and you say, like, you know, what do you hope that'll cover? And you're like, I don't know. And you're like, all right, well, okay, but if you had to guess, what do you think it'd be? Light and playful. What would you think it'd be? everyone tell at that point, they're like, they're already telling you. Like, all right, cool. all right, great. Then you're on there to races. There's other questions to frame up budget, but other than that, you kind of got an idea what it is.

Are you guys open to learning what this stuff typically costs

All right, cool. Because we want to know what they think it should cover. Now if you get somebody, it's like, well, I don't know. All right, but if you had to guess, I don't know. Are you guys open to learning what this stuff typically costs? And then you can do with, what we call an extreme anchor. You know, sometimes you could spend 20,000 on this lighting package. You could spend $200,000 on these lights. Oh, no, we're not spending $200,000 on lights. Well, 20,000 looks like a drop in a bucket, now, doesn't it? Same point of what you were making earlier, right, with your, your triple option, Same concept. So we're going for. No. We're pointing it so far out to a point where like, no.

Ryan Broadville: With landscape lighting, sometimes people get sticker shock

All right, let's bring it back to where we know we should be. Don't be afraid to do these kinds of things. This is fun. It's really designed to find out where your client's Edges are. And the more skilled you become at this and the more reps you burn, the more natural this feels because ultimately we're here to serve, not to take advantage of them.

It does not only feel natural, but it feels good because, you know, you're, going to help more people by working through these issues that other people are ignorant about. What I like to do is I like to tell them because everyone I ask for a budget, they're like, I don't know. And some people really don't know. I mean, I used to not know what, ah, lighting cost. I thought $4,000 was a lot for landscape lighting when I first heard about it. So who might have judged them? I mean, just because I have all this experience and I know that lighting's worth fifty thousand, a hundred thousand, whatever. Like, they don't. So I found that just by me telling them what you call, like an extreme anchor. If you just tell them a price, they're much more willing to open up and share. But they don't want to be the first one because, let's face it, most people have been burned by a contractor. And you can go, well, I'm not a contractor, I'm a designer. Well, that's fine. But they still think you're a contractor. They don't know you and know that they trust you. They don't know that you're a designer. They don't feel that same way about you. So if you will, early on in the process, say, hey, this could be upwards of whatever, you know, 200,000. If it's, if it's lighting and you think it's going to be 20,000 and you say this could be as high as 40, 50 grand, they're going to have a reaction. And what I love about that, Josh, I'm glad that you do this because I'm pretty sure it happens with outdoor living. I know with landscape lighting, I don't think there's ever been a job in the history of forever that hasn't had some element of sticker shock. Even people that can afford it, they're like, damn, that's a lot more money than I thought. I'm still going to give you the check. It's just, that's just a lot more money than I thought. So you're essentially getting rid of the sticker shock, letting them absorb it, and instead of waiting until the very end, and then like you said, people feel like you're. You were like, you know, carrying them along this whole time and deceiving them, and they had no idea it was going to be that much. So you're really hurting people by making them wait.

It's absolutely true. And, you know, as contractors out there, whether you're designing, whether you're whatever, you build stuff, you're a contractor, in a client's mind, you're about as valuable as that gum they stepped on earlier today on the sidewalk. Right? Unfortunately, that's the world we live in. I've been struggling with that my entire career. Doctors, lawyers, they go to school, they get a piece of paper, and they're immediately respected. Us, on the other hand, as professionals, as important as them, we get this low, you know, we just get treated less, so we have to fight harder. That's okay. We got to be scrappier, and that's okay. They don't. It positions us in such a beautiful position, Ryan. I don't look at it as a problem or that I'm a victim because of this. I look at this as a massive opportunity to some surprise them with something that they never saw coming. Like, what level of professionalism is this guy on? Because seriously, we were the first in our market over 20 years ago, starting to charge for design. Nobody was charging for design. We were the first. We weren't cheap. We had to break into our market, which is a highly competitive market. Not just a little town, that Broadheadsville, but down in the Lehigh Valley and all those areas, right, that are highly affluent. It's like we had to break into those markets, and we were charging for design because I wasn't going to waste my time anymore. I was getting sick and tired of doing free designs and getting my time wasted. So we. And so we had to come up with the most amazing value stacks. That's a whole other episode, but value stacks for our company, that clients would be like, oh, my goodness, there's something significantly different about this company. Even though they're still giving us a patio, a deck, a roof or whatever it might be, landscape lighting and all that stuff, there's something significantly different about these guys. They just do things differently. And the ones that, like, value the ones that truly want the experience are willing to pay for it. They've sensed that immediately. And the other two guys that came out to give them bids are just like, hey, how much you got? What do you want? I'll be out Tuesday. That kind of routine. And they're like, we don't trust those guys. We trust these guys immediately. That'll increase your closing rate. Just by having a system in place and knowing how to communicate with people that is huge. But I say all that because as contractors, we will always fight an uphill battle. Whether we like it or not, whether we're professional or not, we're always going to fight. So it gives us the opportunity to shine. Because the standard is so low, the expectations, clients expectations is so low, it doesn't take a ton to stand out.

For real? Yeah, for real. That's why I love this whole conversation, because so many people are afraid of sales. And we do know that sales is a dirty word and everything else, but it doesn't have to be complicated. And it starts way before the actual sell. Like, there is no sell. The cell starts when the phone rings. If you pick it up within two rings, if you don't, if you have to call them back, you're already behind. You know, it's. It's the whole process. Yeah, I was,

There's something about mountains that I love. The connection that I get out there

This is like, what, last week or two weeks ago, I was skiing in Switzerland, and you're like, hey, that's the Matterhorn. I'm climbing the Matterhorn this summer. Yeah. Is this. Is this true? This is happening?

It is, yeah, man. It's. There's something about mountains that I love. And what I love about mountains is the fact that when you see that challenge, it so much reflects life, Right? You see these mountains, they seem insurmountable. And you're like, you know what? Just put one foot in front of the other, and I'll get to the top. And there's something about connecting with God out there on a mountain that I haven't found anywhere else. I love nature and be out there, but when you're in such desolate high elevations. just finished Cotopaxi in Ecuador this winter. Doing, Matterhorn this summer. Had my eyes on Everest base camp and all these mountains. It's not because I want any kind of accolades for it. It's not because I want bragging rights. It's because when I'm out there, I'm the closest to God that I. That I ever am. And I'm with them all the time. But, I mean, the point is, it's. There's something about the mountains that pull it in my heart even more, that connection. So I love the challenge, and I love the. The, The connection that I get out there. So the bigger the challenge is, the bigger the connection is, the way I see it. So I like to bag a bunch of them and just be out there and enjoy it.

I feel like we have a lot in common. We have a lot of same thought processes. What. What Goes on in your mind. Like, are you think. Are you thinking of, like. Man, I'm. I'm stronger now mentally. I'm, Are, you thinking of, like, business analogies? Like, when you're climbing up these mountains and stuff like that?

There's times when I'm questioning every decision I've ever made, man. I'm telling you, Cotopaxi was a whole different beast. That. That clears out. It's higher than Kilimanjaro by six feet. and it's. It's mostly. It's mostly glacial work. And you do it in the middle of the night, and you're at altitudes where the air is so thin that, you're taking a few steps and just trying to breathe. A few steps and trying to breathe. And it takes days and days to get acclimated, to even begin the hike up the summit. And then there's this. It's wild, but you get to a certain point at the very end of that hike, and, I call it a hike. It's more of a trek, right? We're not using ropes and all that kind of stuff. It's just crampons and just heavy ice work. We get to the end of the. What I'm thinking is almost the end of the hike, and I look up in this pitch. I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't vertical, but it sure looked that way after hours of grinding up this mountain at night. And I remember looking up and seeing these headlamps of people going up ahead of us, zigging up this mountain. And these headlamps are just dotted up this mountain, and they go right out. And I'm looking. I'm blinking my eyes. I'm exhausted, half asleep. And I'm looking, and I say, are, those headlamps, are they stars? Because the headlamps went right out, smaller and smaller, and eventually it was the sky of stars. And I couldn't tell the difference between them.

Oh, that's cool.

And I was like, wow. I'm like, we're way above the clouds here. It's, you know, headaches because of the altitude and just nausea and all that stuff. And you're like, you know what? I can do this. And if I can do this willingly, I get to do this. I chose to do this. When I get back and business is tough or, like, life is tougher, I look back and I look in that little cookie jar, and I pull it out, and I'm like, man, you climb that freaking mountain, you can do this. Nothing compared to that. And that sets the tone for the day. That sets the tone for those struggles. I look forward to challenges. Challenges are the gifts we grow from, right? So if we don't have challenges, we're not growing, and if we're not growing, we're dying. There's no stagnation. Trees don't stop growing. They either continue to grow or they die. People are no different. So those challenges help keep me focused on my workouts throughout the year to get prepared for these challenges. Because if I don't have one out there, Ryan, to be honest with you, I just kind of flail around. Like, some days I'm doing weight work, some days I'm running, some days I'm not. I'm not motivated. But when I'm like, I got a mountain coming in, like, three months that I have to get my ass in 100% shape for, right? There's. There's something that lights a fire under your butt, they go do it.

Ryan Miller: Systems, processes, and discipline are what get you success

It's the same with business. If you're like, I want to do this big goal, and you're not out there daily chipping at that, with discipline, you're not going to get there. Luck's not going to get you there. Luck will get you to a million dollars, but it's not going to get you past that. Systems, processes, and discipline is what gets you past a million dollars. So it's so mountains, to me, are ways to exercise that in a way that is fun, challenging, and absolutely stupid at times, right? So, yeah.

Dude, that's awesome. The day after you messaged me, I skied. I was there, like, one more day, and I skied right by it, and I stopped and I was looking. I was like, where's he gonna climb up? It's not like there's like a paved walkway, you know? Like, it's. And it's not like a hike. Like, it's a climb. So I'm excited for you, man. That's. That's gonna be epic. I can't wait to hear about it.

Thank you. Yeah, man, it's, It's great. It's awesome you were there. Because when I saw that, I'm like, he's skiing Switzerland. I'm like, that's freaking. That's a Matterhorn. I'm like, that's so awesome. I thought it was Utah, but I'm like, there's no Matterhorn in Utah that I'm aware of.

There's not a Matterhorn here and there. I mean, it's all above the tree line, and it's Beautiful, man. It's. It's going to be such a cool experience for you. Well, thank you. Can't thank you enough, man. Thanks for joining us on the show today. So, many gold nuggets. I'm taking notes. I love it when I take notes on my own show. thank you for pouring into us and the lighting community. if people want to reach out, tell us how they get in touch with you, your podcast, your. Your business, all the stuff.

I appreciate it, sir. So, yeah, so if you guys want more information on sales, that's all I focus on in the podcast. M. It's Sales Made simple. You'll find that on all the podcast platforms. we're everywhere. and congratulations. Almost on a 200 episode. We just passed that mark, too. It's been four years of. Of. Of slugging it in the trenches and asking myself, like, what am I doing here? Why am I on this show? Why am I doing this stuff? And then you get one call, and someone's like, yeah, man, that. That. That gold nugget you dropped the other day, it changed my life. My business is so much better now, and I'm just like, that's why we're doing it. That's. That's all it takes, right? It keeps everything going. It's like, all right, I'll keep going. It's cool.

I'll do it.

Sometimes you don't think anybody's here. Yeah, exactly. I'll do it. Enough. No one realizes, guys, how much work Ryan puts into this podcast to make this happen. Like, you don't realize the work. You might hear the hour that he talked to you here, but it's the hours of preparation and setting up for. For me to be here and everybody else to be here, and then to editing and all.

It's.

It is an immense amount of work, and the goal is always to make it look simple. Right. But, right at the end of the day, the podcast, your best way to find me. You'll hear lots of stuff there about sales and the outdoor living landscape and hardscape world. I also have yes Express, which is where we actually train people in our industry. I've had the blessing of training hundreds in our industry how to communicate better through sales processes and understanding what to do, in what order in order to get the best results, to serve your client, not sell them. So if you're out there listening, you're like, I hate sales. I wish I could just build stuff and not have to worry about the selling part. Then you're a good fit for us because we don't sell. We teach you how to serve.

Nice, man. So good, dude. I love you, man. Thanks for coming on here. Thanks for pouring into everybody, and, I wish you the best of success, and, can't thank you enough.

I love you, too, brother. Thank you for the opportunity, and God bless.

All right, take it easy, everyone. And now you just got to go implement everything Joshua taught us

All right, take it easy, everyone. And now you just got to go implement everything Joshua taught us. Good luck. It'll be easy. That's right. See you.