Lighting for Profits - Episode 201

Join us as we dive into the world of outdoor illumination with Patrick Harders—nationally recognized lighting designer, Sterling Lighting Co-Founder, and industry pioneer. With over 25 years of hands-on experience and multiple international design awards under his belt, Patrick shares his journey, insights, and vision for the future of landscape lighting. Whether you're an aspiring designer, seasoned pro, or lighting enthusiast, this episode will shine a light on the art, science, and soul behind great outdoor design.

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Episode Transcript

Welcome to Lighting for Profits. All light powered by Emory Allen

Welcome to Lighting for Profits.

All light, All light. All light powered by Emery Allen.

Here is your host, Ryan Lee.

Oh, light. All light, all light. Let's go.

If you're looking to start or grow a landscape lighting business, this show is for you

It's Tuesday, 5pm Eastern, which means it's time to light it up. It's Lighting for Profits powered by Emory Allen. I'm your host, Ryan Lee. Ah, it's gonna be awesome. So got a great show lined up for you guys. by the way, if you're looking to start or grow a landscape lighting business, you're definitely in the right place. We're here to start, help you really start, grow that business. we want to motivate you, we want to help you dominate your area. So, thank you guys so much for your support. We're still the number one, the number one landscape lighting show in Virginia. Did you guys know that? Number one landscape lighting show in Virginia. excited because we got an epic show lined up. We've got Patrick Harder's the co, founder of Sterling Lighting and Dayloom. So, always fascinating, conversation, always good combo with Pat and excited to have him on. We're going to talk about a lot of different topics. We're going to get into lighting design and if, if you're not fascinated by design, like you guys know me, the show is called Lighting for Profits. Like I'm all about helping you make more money. but we're going to talk about how lighting design itself is a thing, a huge thing. It can help you make more money. So we're going to talk about design, we're going to talk about business, we're going to talk about pricing, we're talking a lot of different things. he went, through a major rebrand not too long ago. So I want to check in with him and see how that's going. So great show lined up with Patrick Carters. Make sure you stick around. before we have him on a couple things.

Last week was Lighting for profits' 200th episode

Number one, if you missed last week, and I'm sorry Pat, but last week was our 200th episode. it was really cool celebration. but what that means is 200 hours, 200 hours of blissful, just blissful listening content. and I looked up some interesting stats. If you drove, if you drove non stop 60 miles per hour, which let's face it's not very fast, you're kind of slow. but if you drove 60 miles per hour, in 200 hours, in 200 hours of listening to Lighting for profits, you could have traveled 12,000 miles. That's enough to Circle the earth halfway. Isn't that cool? Like, we've, you know, I know some of you guys have listened to every episode, so you've made it halfway around the earth just listening to lightning prophets. That's, that's pretty cool. I thought. I don't know. And then. Fun fact. Also today is episode 201, not to be forgotten, episode 201, which is the exact same number of episodes. You guys remember the show the Office? The Office of. In the United States, the US version, they had 201 episodes. I was just trying to throw in some awkward silence, you know, in, in honor of the. The Office. So, that's cool, though. We got the same number of episodes as the Office. Like, I kind of want to stop after today just because the Office was such a good show. But we're gonna keep going. but, anyway, in a few minutes we're gonna have Patrick. harder's on. but, right now we're, we're facing. It's like, interesting time of the year. You know, we're getting into the, the summer, which, like, if you're in the south, if you're in Florida, it's like everyone's too hot. They've all gone up north, and things are slowing down and stuff like that. but interesting time of the year also. Interesting economy right now, you know, And I have clients and, and people that I talk to that are like, having record months, that have been around in business many, many years having record months. And then I have other people that I talk to that are relatively flat. And then there's a bunch of people that are like, down, like down in the lighting industry right now. So, the thing that I ask myself is, like, what would cause such a disparity? and to be honest, I don't know. I don't actually know, but I think I do know, something that has a lot to do with it. And so that's what I want to talk about really quickly. And, I think it has to do with this.

Saving won't make you rich, but growth will

So in the past, you've maybe heard me talk about the difference between an investment and expense. Well, today what I want to talk about is the difference between an investment and saving. Because what I found out, I thought everyone was like, either investing or spending, but I also realized that there's a lot of people that aren't doing either. And so saving won't make you rich, but growth will. And this is the common denominator that I see amongst the people that are not just getting by right now. But thriving. And the people that are just kind of like getting by and I hear the excuse all the time like, I can't afford that. You guys ever heard that if you sell lighting, you've heard that, okay? But honestly, it doesn't matter if in business, if we're talking about going to a conference, if you're talking about investing in marketing, advertising doesn't matter if we're talking about hiring a new team member or joining landscape lighting secrets, it doesn't matter. We hear this all the time. And it's the difference between a scarcity mindset and an abundant mindset. And the abundant mindset person, they, they find a way to make things happen. They don't make excuses, they don't say things like I can't afford it. They're saying, how can I afford that? That or they're saying, what can I do to come up with the money to be able to do that? Okay, you see the difference there? It's like finding an excuse to not do it versus finding an excuse and a path to do it. Okay? The scarcity mindset just views it as an expense that, let's face it, probably won't ever happen. And scarcity mindset people are savers. How do I know this? Well, because I used to be one. I used to be the all time greatest saver of the world. Maybe like second to like Dave Ramsey or something like that. But like I, I loved saving. I don't, I don't know why. I think maybe because my mom didn't have extra money growing up and I was like, I probably need something, right? People that are, grow up in those environments, they tend to, to want to hold on to money a little bit. Right? And so, I, I was a saver. I had this scarcity mindset until I figured it out and I realized you can't save your way to, to success. That growth requires investment. Okay? So, for whatever reason, most people are conditioned to think that saving is the path to wealth. you know, so maybe you've done this. Maybe as you slow things and the economy starts to restrict, you start to get less leads. Or maybe your closing rate isn't quite the same as it used to. Instead of fixing the real problem, you decide that, well, I'm going to cut costs, I'm going to lay people off, I'm going to go buy cheaper materials, whatever it is, you know, I'm going to sell a van or whatever it is, maybe you'll delay that hire, maybe like, well, I do want to grow, but you know, I watch the news, so maybe it's not time to hire that next technician, maybe it's not time to hire an office manager because I'm afraid I've got that scarcity mindset. I don't want to invest in this person, right? What if, what if things slow down? so then you wait to invest in marketing, you hoard cash for a rainy day, and then all of a sudden you're like, what? Well, you didn't invest in marketing, so how can you expect like a abundant result? Right? your, your outputs typically follow your inputs. And so I want, I want to show you guys some way to leverage those so that you can actually like, 1 input equals 3, 4, 5 outputs instead of 1 to 1 or 0 to 0. Because the truth is you can't shrink your way to success. And that's what unfortunately most business owners do. And that's why they run out of money and that's why they are not around five years later.

A few reasons why saving doesn't lead to growth in business

So here's a, few reasons I put together why saving doesn't lead to growth. So number one, there's a real floor to saving, but there's no ceiling to growth, right? There's really no ceiling to earning. Like it's an infinite game that you're playing here in business. But when it comes to saving, you can really only cut so much. Once you hit zero, like you're, you're stuck. But there truly is no limit on, on how much you can grow. If you increase your top line revenue, you can build new offers you, and you can truly create leverage by investing in people, investing in systems, investing in marketing, investing in your business. Okay, Number two, saving really creates a scarcity mindset. it truly makes you operate in fear. And so if you have that fear, this is how you can identify if you have a scarcity or abundant mindset. If you're like, man, I don't know, I don't know what's going to happen. We just had some bombings on the other side of the world. Like, what's going to happen if you have this fear, and uncertainty, you're probably operating out of a scarcity mindset. if you're avoiding risk, you're avoiding hiring, you're avoiding marketing. that's how you stay small, right? And growth, if that's what you really want, it requires bold decisions. typically you're not going to grow by playing defense. And while you might see a Super bowl championship team win because they're a Better, defensive team. That's not going to work in business. Like, you have to play offense in this game. You have to be willing to take these risks. And the good news is they can be calculated. You know, when, when you're part of a community, whether if you're part of the free community of, like, you know, lighting for profits or paid in landscape lighting secrets, there's a lot of people. And that's what we're trying to do here on the podcast is, is help people be vulnerable and create a community of sharing. There's a lot of people where you can learn from other people's mistakes, which is way better than learning from your own mistakes. And so it's not as risky as it used to be. Trust me that with the things that we're sharing on this podcast, you don't have to take the same level of risk that I took 15 years ago, whenever that was. I'm trying not to remember, how long ago. I started in 2007. So whenever that was, number three, the big leaps, the big leverage, that doesn't come from budgeting, okay? And yes, we. It's not that budgeting is bad, but the biggest breakthroughs in business come from investments. Investments in people, in the systems, in the marketing and the coaching and the technology, okay? These are all forms of leverage that don't get, acquired by saving. Like, you're not going to save your way to build systems and marketing and all these things. So they do require a level of investment. And then finally, your business is not a piggy bank, okay? It's truly a growth machine. you know, cash sitting in a savings account. that's nice. I mean, that feels good. But what's that going to do? Like, just buy you 30 days, 60 days, whatever. It's also lazy. Like, you need to deploy that cash into the right initiatives. And that's how you turn $1 into 3, 5, 7, $10. That's truly how this game is won. Okay? And I get it. Like, not everyone's built for that. Like, maybe, maybe you did it once and it didn't work. So then it's easy to retreat and it's easy to back. I'm just gonna save. I'm gonna hold on to this. But I'm telling you, that's not the way to, to win this game. So, imagine like, saving is like, is like trying to win a race and you hit the brakes, and then you hope that everyone else is just going to run out of gas. Like, that's playing defense. That's not going to work. So step on the gas, take the lead, build momentum.

Where are you currently choosing comfort over courage in your business

I've got two, basically two important questions I want you to ask yourself as kind of an activity, as an exercise. And then again, we're going to have Patrick, harder's on in just a minute. But, the two questions are this. Number one, where are you currently choosing comfort over courage? Where are you currently choosing comfort over courage? So where are you choosing saving over investing? Okay, spend some time doing this. Like, spend 30 minutes on this exercise. Like, shut yourself in a room, turn off your phone, no distractions. Where are you currently choosing comfort over courage? And then number two, what would your business look like if you prioritized growth returns instead of cost reductions? Okay. What would your business look like if you prioritized growth returns instead of just cost reductions? And when you do this exercise, you're going to have a revelation. You're going to have some insight. Then it's up to you. Then it's up to you on which path you want to take. But at least it'll be revealed unto you. Like a couple of different paths that you can take. So highly. Encourage you guys to think outside the box. Get comfortable, get being uncomfortable. That's what this is about. And, learn to invest. Learn the difference between an investment and expense. And even maybe more importantly, learn the difference between investing and saving. Because you're not going to save your way to the top. Oh, there's the music.

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Ryan: I think that mentality can really crush your business

All right, guys, it's time to get our guest coming on. I do like my intro because I get to get my thing out, you know, and then I. And then I can make it all about our guest. Because I hate. I hate it when you listen to a podcast and it's like, wait, you. You asked your guest a question, and then now you're taking over. So I don't want to take over. So I do my monologue because I got all these things spinning around these in my mind. And, now it's time to really get our guests coming on. So if you guys are ready, let me know. Welcome to the show, Mr. Patrick Harders.

How's it going, Ryan? Really good points at the beginning. Love that.

Oh, I hope so.

I think a lot of times people go from that savings mentality, they cut out marketing first, and then the next thing they do is they start cutting their pricing because they think they're too expensive. And they're thinking. Everybody's thinking like them. So then all of a sudden it's like just a spiraling effect where there's less leads coming in, less money coming in, they're getting less per job. So it, you know, I think that mentality can really crush your business. So. Good points.

Oh, it totally can. And it's like a. It's like you're self sabotaging without even knowing it. I've said a few times that, like, there's never a good time. Like, maybe I should change it to convenient. But it's never a good time to invest in advertising, and there's never a good time to invest in coaching. Because if you, like, when you're doing good, you're like, dude, let's turn off the ads, you know, like, and we ain't going to hire some coach. What are you going to tell us? We know everything, dog. And then it's like when you're slow, you're like, no, we. We need it. We just can't afford it.

Yeah. Now what do we do? We got to get the phone ringing. And this, this has been a strange year because it's, you know, I think everything that's gone on in the world, you know, our busiest time at least, like, we're mid Atlantic, so, like April, May, beginning of June, we're booking up jobs left and right. And this year everybody just had a pause. Once the tariffs hit, once the other things were going on and we're bombing the world, it just kind of, you know, made everybody pause. So I had all these projects out there that are like seventy thousand, hundred thousand, and their portfolios are dropping. So then it's, you know, Convincing people to part with money when they, they just don't have the fortitude. Like, a lot of people just went silent for a little while.

Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. I. I've heard that from several people. it's. It's kind of interesting because, yeah, if they log into their stock account, they're like, oh, our wealth just went down, you know, a lot.

Cashing it in today.

Yeah. I'm like, wait, but you're, but you still have. Like, you're not poor.

No, that's, that's what I got. He's like, I just lost a hundred thousand bucks today. I'm like, it'll be back. Like, you know, that happens. That's the cyclical nature. We're not, we're not looking at a, Japanese recession that goes on for 15 years. You know, I think things are picking up and looking really good for indicators. But it's just, there's a lot of customers that are a little more nervous now than they have been, you know, like 2020, when it was like the golden age of just closing deals everywhere.

Right. Well, and it's like, that's fine if, if that's going to be your excuse. Like, I'm, I'm with you. I can ride that wave. But when you make 300 grand in a day, that. Does that mean you're also going to buy that much more lighting from me?

I know. And, you know, there is a. I used to listen to this old guy on the radio and he's like, even in a recession, my whole objective is to not participate in it. The recession is just, my neighbor lost a job and we're not in a recession. Like the economy showing good indication of a lot of good things happening. But, you know, people are just a little bit apprehensive, which just for the lighting industry in particular, like that April, May, June to push through the summer didn't happen as in as many markets, but there's a ton of jobs. I have a lot of big projects sitting there that we're still talking. Like, we're walking, we're doing. Offering a second walkthrough, you know, re. Re updating their drawings, the renderings, kind of, you know, keeping engaged with them. And, and you know, maybe we just start off at 30 and we build from there.

But I mean, that's, that's what's going to happen. That's what I love about. Or not the only thing, one of the things I love about the lighting industry is we are dealing, you Know historically with a high end client and they get bored. I mean, even if they lose a lot of money, they still have a lot. So like give them a few weeks, like if you can just be a little bit patient with them, they're going to come around and still want that outdoor kitchen which is going to require lighting. They're still going to want the pool, they're still going to want the house, they still want the outdoor living. And obviously we know how much lighting is tied to all that stuff. So happened to me in, you know, when I started my business end of 2007, 2008, housing crisis, I'm like, crap, why did I start now? Of all the years, why would you start a lighting business now? But you know, give them a few months, all of a sudden they're like, they're spending money. And it was because of that that got us out of a recession because eventually people will get bored. People will be spending like they realize that they're, they're fine. And that's, I think that's what's happening now.

And there might be some, you know, if somebody's not with a group and they're just an individual lone ranger lighting guy, which I've been, you know, it's hard to keep that positive mental focus going. So that's why groups like yours or AOLP and other organizations are so good. Because you get to kind of bounce your crazy ideas. Like one customer ruins your day, so then you think everybody's thinking that way. It's just like, it's not a big deal because the next guy's going to come by, they're going to write you a good check and you're just going to get rolling. So you know, just encourage people. If it's a little slow, you just got to work a little harder.

92% of realtors recommend landscape lighting to increase property value

And I was doing a little research, just writing up some articles and I thought two things that were really interesting is nar, north, what is it? North American association of realtors. 92% of realtors recommended landscape lighting to increase property value at the study done in like 2017. And then they had the JOY rating for different home improvement projects. And lighting got a 10 out of 10. The highest grade. You know, be obviously like windows, roofing, siding, all the stuff that's boring at home. Improvements like lighting is a fun one. So you know, telling your customers you're going to improve your property value. This is a fun project. It's done quickly and it has a tremendous impact. It just changes everything on your property. So.

And Literally, like, all those things you mentioned, like, everyone, no matter what. Like when you spend money on your house, like, it feels good. Like, yeah, we just spent like 30 grand on that roof. That's, that's a nice roof, you know, or the windows, like, yeah, we, they were. These are double pane. Like, these are the good.

For about a week.

but then, then it's over. Like, it just ends. Where lighting continues to perform every single night. It's. I've been, I've had lighting. I've known about landscape lighting now since 2007. So that's 18 years. I. And my house is nothing crazy. My design, it's not even a design, it's just lights on a house. it's so awesome. Like, I freaking love driving up to my house at night. It'll never get old.

And that's the energy we have to transpire to. Our customers is that excitement we have. You know, because you could have business beating you down, you know, employee didn't. Whatever happened, like, things are going to happen and you just got to tune that all out and go back to like, you know, how fun it is that first night when a customer pulls, you know, up the hill and they see their house all lit up at night, or they're in their backyard and they got that beautiful scene that you created that they're going to go out and enjoy all summer. And you know, for those customers that wait, you're like, we should have done this three months ago. I don't know why I, you know, thought the world was falling apart because I'm watching CNN or whatever, Fox News. It's like, just turn off your tv, enjoy life and get some good lights.

Yeah. Like, do you want to be depressed when you watch cnn or do you want to at least feel good about yourself? I mean, that's really the only question we have to know.

Yep.

You got your lighting certified, your lc, which I had heard of

Well, I want to talk to you about so many different things. You've got Dayloom, which is a very successful design and installation firm. You've got Sterling Ah, Lighting, I think, which is a very successful lighting manufacturer. I think I want to ask you first about, design. So I was read, I was reading your bio. I'm like, dang, dude, I want this bio. eight time, eight time AOLP design champion, three time lit design award winner. And then I know in, a couple years ago you got your lighting certified, your lighting certified, your lc, which I had heard of, but I didn't know anyone that did that in the landscape lighting industry. So first of all. Congratulations on, all the hardware, man. That's killer.

Yeah, I failed that test twice trying to get to it. It's 180 questions. Takes about four hours. The first time I took it, I got to the one section that had to do with interior prison lighting, and I went like, 0 for 9 in that whole section. Like, I have no idea what the lighting should be in the guard center versus the cells.

And that's really on there. Or is that. Is that a joke?

That was. No, it was really. That was the section I went like 0 for 8 or 0 for 9 on. And I missed it by like four to six questions, something like that. So I took it again the next year. Thought I just would know it and didn't know it, so I didn't study. So then, yeah, there's Greg. Greg and I had a great time at Italy many years ago. Was it 20, 17, 18, something like that. but then the third time was a charm. Finally passed it. And, you know, it's really just another. I think it's important for us to continue to challenge ourselves. So it's just a thing to see if I could do it. And, you know, if I'm going to meet with architects and landscape architects, it's the one certification that they recognize.

Yeah, that's cool.

You use the Lit Design Award and the AOLP Design Awards in your marketing

You know, and some of the other ones, like, I don't think most homeowners are going to know what the Lit Design Award and the AOLP Design Awards are, but how are you using those in your marketing to, help with your sales process and also to develop relationships with referral partners?

Yeah, I mean, I try and, you know, it's like humble bragging a little bit, where I'm like, not trying to be like this. I'm not the guy that's going to sit there and be like, you know, do you know who I am? You know, I'm just a normal guy.

Online. Yeah, you live over two. Two towns from us.

Yeah. but I do talk like, the Lit Award. When I first won it, my wife called me up. She's like, hey, we won the Lit Award. I'm like, oh, cool. She's like, we get. We accept the award in Greece. We got, you know, first year we won just one award. Second year was in Greece, and we got two awards. And she's like, we're going to Greece. I'm like, I'm not going to Greece. Like, I had no interest in doing it, but turns out, like, every woman wants to go to Greece. So we went to Greece and It was a huge deal. Like, we're at the Acropolis. That's where I met Alfatheria, who you met at our event. And, you know, got to talk to her about lighting. So it is a different level when I'm meeting with customers. Even like, when I'm talking about the AOLP Awards, I think, you know, we got two of them. And it was exciting because it was some of my designers, people that have been bringing up, you know, working with, like, Andy Shumate. He's been working m with me for about 15 years. So it's nice to see someone that it's trained under me and found an avenue and I in my company to grow in the company to then work on a project and get an award. so there's a lot of excitement in the company. And, you know, I like starting to build up that tree of people underneath me and hopefully that could continue. but it's just. Just a talking point to customers go, like, yeah, we won the commercial lighting project Year of the word. Or, you know, once again fell second place to Chris Applestot to his number one lighting project in the country.

But that's awesome.

You know, don't apply for these awards for yourself. Do it for other people

Well, actually, you bring up a good point because, you know, I was talking about celebrating our 200th episode. like, as owners, this was. It might be this one. I was saying, like, I did delete one episode.

Yeah, this might be it.

Or I don't know if this is 202 or 200. I don't know either. There's some weird stuff.

Yeah.

So I said someone should fact check it, because I'm not even sure. I don't even know what's going on most of the time. So someone should fact check everything. but anyway, we have this reservation to, like, celebrate and to you call it humble brag, whatever it is. But, like, there's more people involved than just us. Like, if people would realize, like, hey, you're not just winning this award for you to brag. You're winning it, to help your clients feel that, well, they're getting a level here that they didn't even know was possible. You're getting it for your team members that, I mean, it's got to feel good for these guys that have been around a long time, like, dude, I worked on that project, you know, that that's really cool. So don't do it for yourself. You know, don't apply for these awards for yourself. Do it for other people. And then it's a little bit easier because most of us aren't like, except for me, I have the number one landscape lighting show in the world. But yeah, most people aren't like that. it's, it's awkward to like celebrate yourself. It really is kind of weird. So. But if you do it for, for the causes other people, it's a lot easier to serve others than, than for yourself. So I think it's cool, man.

There's a whole thing that goes with you know, creating company culture

There's a whole thing that goes with you know, creating your company culture. And you know, it's as we're small businesses, like the company culture is like me and like Josh forever and then me and Andy and Josh, it was like three amigos just out there slugging in the trenches. but as you develop a team and you start getting a culture and like, hey, we do award winning designs which also means we have to do award winning installations and then award winning customer. And so you start just putting these higher levels, you know, and it's for us we're like, it's the daylum way. It's the way we do things. We try and do everything. Like we're, we're going to fail. There's going to be something that, you know, a technician goes out and messes something up and we go out there to fix it. But you know, you're instilling that culture into people. And back in the old infusionsoft days, they always said the first four letters of culture as cult. And you're creating a little cult inside of your organization that you know, they, people take pride in. Like I work for a company but it's the best at what they do. And so that's what we've tried to do.

Yeah, it's so true. I mean if you, if you put yourself in their shoes, do you want to work for a lighting installation company that just buries wire all day or do you want to work for a lighting design and installation firm that wins is award winning, like nationally and worldwide recognized that actually is making a change in the world. Like it's all how you, how you build your culture. So that's cool.

And you're naturally going to gravitate towards different strengths. Like beginning of my career it was, I loved installs and I don't know why, I mean they're terrible. But I just loved being out there and figuring it out and you know, getting dirty, doing all that. And it was hard to get out of the field. And then it was like, you know, what's our next step? What are we what. You know, as I had to grow in the company, I Went from basically trenching and meeting the customer to, like, all right, now I'm a designer. I'm showing up in dirty jeans and boots to like, all right, now I gotta clean up my act a little bit and then get some outside verification that I'm actually good at what I do and just kind of keep building it up. But that's giving avenues for other people in our team to kind of fill the spot that I had before.

So where did that come from, that shift? From like, hey, I'm a. I'm a lighting installer to now. I mean, by design award winner, all this stuff?

Yeah, it was slow for me because I'm, you know, I process. I had a customer tell me one time, she's like, you're very methodical. And I'm like, that just means I'm slow. Like, I process things. Yeah, I'm always doing stuff, but, when I have to really think about it, I just, you know, sit down and, like, stare at it for a while and try and figure it out. But I was with a customer. This was like 2011 12. Right in there. Walk through the whole property. He's telling me it's for his daughter's wedding. We went through the whole thing. He said, looks great. Nothing happens. A week later, I, get back in touch with him. He's like, walk through it again. So we walked through the whole thing again. He writes me a check in full, hands it to me. And he was the one that said the magic words, like, do you know why I picked this? Picked you over everybody else? I'm like, no. He goes, because you have a designer's eye. Like, I could picture what you were telling me, and I could see the vision you had for lighting on my property. And right there, it just like, well, I can't believe I never knew it was that much about design. And so then I just dove deep into, like, trying to, you know, I had done nighttime demos for 15 years, five nights a week, and, you know, thought I was pretty good at design. But most of the time I was just putting, you know, light between each windows, 15ft, 15 inches off the center of the window and just lining them up. Lighting for crate myrtles were in and out. So we were more production, and getting installs and getting jobs. And so, you know, what I realized is part of design is you could make more money. You're going to have a bigger job if you design it correctly. so. And then I think the impact is better. Like, I could take much more pride in my jobs. Like, both of us could probably go back to like 2005 jobs and just like, yeah, that's. That's embarrassing at this point. And we all went through that and then it's like, you know, now I could go out to a project or for the last five, ten years, whatever, and just go like, you know, that took some visionary work, like something that I don't think everybody would have seen. and that's the artistic side. So, it took a while for me, but it was just kind of step by step along the way, got brought in with good people. That's always happened my whole life that somebody comes in and is, you know, mentoring or helping and giving guidance. So, you know, been very fortunate with that.

Neil Boots has successfully scaled his lighting business from design to production

Hey, Neil.

What's up? Neil Boots. Neil, I told you, we're international.

I know.

Number one landscape lighting show in London, obviously.

Yep.

so how do you. How do you do this? Because I feel like this is something that you've done that I haven't really seen others do. You've been able to scale this? Like, like, I. My business was definitely more. When you talk about, like, design versus production, you know, I'm like, no, I've got a system here for production. Again, it's. I'm not. I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot because I. I still think I'm a good designer, but I didn't it. Not to the same level that you're talking about. How do you manage that growth when you're like, okay, I'm trying to put my design hat on. But I also know we have a business to run here and we've got efficiency and we got so much work. Is it literally just raising your price to a designer where it's. You can afford to. To take your time on it or like, how did you think that's one thing?

I mean, I'll be unpopular and say, like, you could be the greatest designer in the world, but if you're only getting like two jobs a year and nobody's really paying you that much money, it doesn't really help anybody grow your business. Like, Greg Matthews is the. Is the outlier in the whole industry. I think Jim Py behind or right there with them, where they just go after these huge 200, 300, $400,000 projects. you know, the way I looked at it was a little different. I'm like, all right, I have my production jobs, which, you know, we still raised our price. We went up from like, you know, for. We are a perfect price For a long time. Then we built in all our costs and our prices had to go up dramatically. but we went up, you know, 70% product or price over a five year period. But I looked at a lot of jobs like, you know, those were great jobs for training Andy on. And now Danny's going through training where it's like 16 lights across the front of the house, five lights in the back, couple deck lights or something like that. Like I'm bored to death doing that job at this point because I've seen it 10,000 times. But to somebody that's new, like one of my installers that's coming up in the industry, it's a perfect job for him to like we could walk through what I would do on, look at the photos, you know, come up with some ideas and renderings and then you put him on it and they start earning some money doing it and learning design skills and getting better. so I think like a lot of times we trap our installers just as installers and those are our best up and coming designers. So you know, I think that's a great opportunity. And Andy takes, he's now able to take some really big jobs. He's got a couple eighty hundred thousand dollar projects he's bidding on now. But you know, I think your people can help offset like so, you know, you could go after the real big fun jobs and have guys coming up that can take the easier ones.

Yeah, I think, I think that's what it is. Because if you look at just the, the average, like the average lighting job is not a Greg Matthews, you know, $400,000 project. and, and you go to Italy and I love Italy and like they, they teach you all these different things, but it's like, well if it's just like a $8,000 job, you know, like, like I don't see tree that we.

Were picking up, not even the main tree, just one of the trees off on the side was $8,000 side trunk.

Yeah. But so for those ones, that's where I'm like just production all day long. And then yeah, you get a hundred thousand dollar plus job, maybe even 50. Right? Then it's like, okay, let's put our design hat, let's slow down, let's really, let's really make this an award winning project, you know.

But I think it is a good thing to at the beginning just talk about we have the capabilities to do this. So you know, depending on what you're looking for here, if you're looking for something A little more elevated. I could give you some ideas. And there's levels. What we can do, you know, not having down lights on a tree. There's not going to be a person that walks by and says, like, that looks like crap. Except it's like one of us, like the average homeowner looking at it's blown away that we uplit this tree fully. But you add three down lights to it, it changes it, and it ties that tree to the ground. It looks better. So it's like. And I could do that on every single tree, and it's going to look better. But if Budget is, you know, $16,000, well, let's take those off or let's take some other sections off. So, you know, that's always the balance. And I. We got to make sure we don't, like, predetermined, that customers aren't going to spend the money that they potentially can. A lot of times, if we don't bring it up, they don't even know it's a possibility. So I think it's important to bring that possibility up, but then also offset it. you know, here's something just to get started. Let's. Let's get a project going, and we could always add to it over the next 10, 20 years.

Yeah, I think. I think I've learned the hard way, or most of us probably have. If you're not. If you're not designing with your full potential, if you're not showing them the full potential, there's no way they know. Yeah, there's no way. We didn't. We don't. We didn't know. Right. So if you'll show them the full potential and then, you know, obviously, if. If Budget's not going to create it, some people like, I would never do that. I won't. No. I'm not going to just put one light on a tree. I'll walk from that property. I'm like, I'll put a light on that tree. Yeah. So, yeah, I think just show them what's possible and that. That makes a huge difference.

You said you were trying to do a Facebook Live. You're so nerdy

right before we jumped on, you said you were trying to do this Facebook, Live. You were doing a live on. You're so nerdy.

Trying to do a Facebook Live. And of course, the volume, like technology, I. I don't know when I got old that it's like, son of a. I just can't even turn on, like, a camera and it works. So I'm talking and of course, nobody's texting me. They're all commenting on the, on the back end. And like, I can't see it. So I go on for about seven minutes. Just delete it. But yeah.

What are you talking about? I want to. I wanted to. I was going to go and watch it.

So I'll put it on later today. I'll have to redo it. But, you know, it was just an experiment. So we do, you know, nerdy things. I got the big sphere and so we took a five watt, lamp. We did Emory Allen. I think Emory Allen makes the best lamp out there. So put that as a bare lamp test and wanted to test the lumens on it. So, you know, he's right on. That's one thing I love about Emory Allen is, you know, he tested out at like 500. It was like 503. We're really close to that. But then we started putting all the other things that you could put into a, fixture. And it's really just because we get a lot of questions, like, why is our SL23 a lot less bright than the SLO6? So we put it in an SLO1 type fixture and it dropped it down 23%. So it's down at like 400, you know, 400 or 370 lumens. Then we put a longer shroud on it that blocked another 13%. Put a hex liver lens on it, blocked another 25%, a frosted lens another 20%. So you start bringing this down and it just kind of showed that lumens don't show us everything we need. Just like I yell at all time, like, quit calling it watts. You know, don't say it's a seven watt lamp, because that doesn't matter. It's just energy. You know, Jan Moyer yells at me, like, don't use the term lumens. I use it all the time. But it's just a luminous flux. Like how much light's coming out. Once you start honing it in, the fixture is going to eat some of the light out. So, you're going to end up losing quite a bit of light coming out of the fixture, especially shrouds and lenses and hex lenses, things like that. So, you know, that's just important. Like, we go, I think from field design, I think both of us spent our time, like, learning lighting design by how it feels. I think in the near future it's. And it's getting more and more this way that it's going to be set, you know, the way architects design. So I don't think they have the skill set to know how it's going to feel. And we've got that advantage. They know the specifications of the product and what it should do, and they build out a lighting design that way. So I think we're looking at that merger, with different technologies coming out. So it's just getting familiar with like, you know, there are better measurements of light. Like Janell Yell about the center, center for candle power. and because we're getting the same brightness coming out of the light, we're just losing everything else, you know. But when we're looking at it, we say this is a. Ah. If I said put 173 lumen downlight on that tree, you might be like, that seems really low even, though I like low down lights or low lumen downlights. But it's. We're not taking into account all the light that's being lost as it's coming out of the fixture. And we have the different barriers that we put in for glare control and everything else.

You know, it makes sense. Obviously, you put on a lens, you're going to have some lumen depreciation. You put on a hex louver. That makes sense. The shroud thing throws me off. I always considered shroud is just like blocking from light trespass. why would that, contribute?

Well, in those globe, it's your luminous flux. So it's all the light coming out being put onto a square meter. so that's what that's doing with the shroud. It's honing in it and every time it's bouncing off the walls, you're losing a little bit of light, just like you lose light in the inside of the fixture. So, you know, I think it's best to have all lights tested, you know, with all that equipment and you can look and see like everything it's going to do. We've tried to do that. It's a laborious task. but I think that's where everything's going to go. So, like, you know, when we do a rendering or do something like that, you know what we're typically using like, IES files for the design so we could get an idea of like light trespass. And those are all going to be things that seem super complicated. But I've run into two projects this year that I had to sit in front of community boards for three, four hours and argue with them about light trespass. And, you know, if I didn't have all the documentation, it could have been troublesome for my customer that, you know, they probably wouldn't have gotten approved for the lighting project.

Wow. so twice a month you, we have a lighting, design call Inside Lighting Academy and Landscape Lighting Secrets, where people can jump on and get design tips and go through projects and stuff like that. I think it's on my calendar for tomorrow to call you to see how things are going.

Patrick Carter: How are the design calls going? I think they're good

So I'm like, I'll just ask you now, how are the design calls going?

I think they're going good. I love hearing my own voice. So it's like, yes, just another platform so I could hear myself talk. but no, I think it's good. I, I enjoy it. You know, there's a good mixture of people and I'll get some, you know, experienced vets in that come in and that's always fun to just talk lighting. I mean, I love talking. You know, I love talking instantly. I like all aspects of lighting except trenching at this point when it's 103. But I think the rest of it, I'm, you know, I enjoy the design. I like talking design. What different, what are different techniques people are doing? What would you do in different situations? And then it's also pushing me to, you know, I'm not good at terminology. So, you know, that's, I had to take that test and memorize it, and I could take a test and memorize all the verbiage I need, but the minute that test was done, I was like, what do you call that? Like, so I went back to lumens and watts and everything else. But, yeah, so it's been fun. Hopefully people are getting something out of it. You know, there's some good, really good designers and some up and coming designers coming in and a lot of good questions that happen in it.

That's cool. No, I appreciate you doing it. And I mean, speaking of terminology, I'm the worst. And I'm like, why, why am I the guy putting together all these trainings? I'm not, I'm not like, well versed with these things. And so I, you know, we have all these pre recorded videos and stuff like that. And trust me, when I'm making these, I'm just thinking of all the people that are going to freaking judge me, but I'm like, I'm going to do it anyway because that's how I live my life. Andy will, Andy Thomas will give me a hard time. Like, he's like, yeah, I'm on these calls. I'm like, yeah, what Ryan said, that's, that's completely wrong. It's actually called this. And I'm like, that's fine. Like, you should. I just. Someone had to make the video. Someone had to make the original thing to get this thing started.

So God never typically doesn't put us in a position that we're just doing something we're really good at. It's always something like, ah, this is not where I'm as strong. So then you kind of have to, you know, push your way through it and make it happen, and then you get enjoyment out of that.

So we have the. We have the, you know, recordings. We have the content portal so you can learn. And then the calls are to basically correct everything that I taught you that was wrong. So, yeah, show up to the design calls, guys, if you want to learn from Patrick Carter's.

And about half the time I'll be able to play your video and get the audio work. But it is 50% of the time, like, well, we tried.

that's awesome.

Yeah.

Sterling and Alpha Theory Deco are planning a lighting conference in Greece

All right, so every year, Sterling, does a, last four or five years, you guys have done an annual conference, and training and feels like a mini design school and stuff like that. This year, you guys are doing a big one in October. Let's talk about that real quick. The Greece trip.

So we looked at each year we've tried to improve it. You know, last year we had Domingo Gonzalez come in. Jan Moyer. yep, there's Andrew Schwindler getting. Getting his grease body ready. here's beach body for Greece. I think his goal is.

Oh, ah, nice.

yeah, so each year we've tried to improve at Alpha Theory Deco. First year, like, did a zoom call. Next year came in, which is a big thing, and her and Jan did a design together. Then last year, Alpha Theory and I did the design and everybody just got to watch us. which. That was kind of crazy. So this year we just said, let's just do it in Greece. And it was kind of a goal from the beginning. When I went to Greece the one time, and I was like, this would be fun to bring some lighting people here. Because when I got a chance to walk with her and talk lighting, it was just like. Like you and I walking around a project, like, going around daily together and talking about, like, why did you do that? What did you do here? What were you thinking on this? I remember the first thing I said is, like, did you put those ugly bollards in? And she's like, oh, I hate them. Those are. And she's like, starts going off and I'm like, all right. I'm with one of my kind, someone who just loves lighting and, you know, sees the world in a great way. So, yeah, we're excited. Greece is going to be a lot of fun. Actually, I think I just posted in the Legends group, in our Legends group, the, Designing magazine just featured her most recent project. And we're going there on the last day, one of the islands, taking a boat ride, go out for a couple hours and then tour her project. And then there's a day at the beach and stuff like that.

Amazing. So I'm excited for it. I, am. I'm planning on going. I know several others that are. If, if someone wants to go. How do you, how do you go?

Just go to sterling-summit. com. so I think there's about 30 people. 30 people going. It's all couples. obviously can't, can't head off to Greece and leave your wife behind you. You won't come home to anybody in the house.

Yeah. Lindsay doesn't know we're going to a lighting conference yet. I just told her I'm taking a degree, so she'll find out soon enough.

So we are planning activities every day for the spouses who don't want to sit through a lighting talk. And we're trying to limit, like, one of the issues is I like talking about lighting. Al is more intense than I am. So she's like, what if we just did eight to five every day? And so we're trying to hone that back a little bit and just say, like, we'll try and finish off about 1:30. Then everybody gets a break, goes to lunch, goes tours the city. But we're going to have a lot of tour guides there. Like, she's bringing in archaeologists, that have worked on these different sites, like the Acropolis. So, you know, a lot of insider information we're getting to the Acropolis the first thing on the first morning, I believe, or Second morning at 8am we're going to tour that before the crowds and heat get too much. but it's just, it's, it's a different world when, like, we come to. I come to a project here and I'm like, I can't believe this house is 250 years old. And you go to, you know, spot, and it's like Paul stood here and preached and it was an old structure when Paul was here. You're going like, wow, this has got a lot more history. Or this road is, you know, 3,000 years old. And, so it's just, it's really cool. And I think, you know, bringing in the European perspective into lighting and expanding what we do in lighting. And also, you know, she was funny giving me crap at Danville last year. She's like, how exciting is it to light up a tree?

I'm like, I don't know.

I find it exciting. She's like, it's a tree. Like, what about a bridge? What about this? What about that? What? It's like, don't limit yourself to only like, calling it landscape lighting. It's lighting. And so it was like getting into like, you know, what happens if somebody came and they had a huge, you know, courthouse. Are you going to tell them no? Because it's not. Not landscaping. no, we're going to figure that out. And so. And it is kind of changing our mindset. I think Jan did such an amazing job is getting us to focus on trees and getting us to focus on nature and how to make it like, in America. I think we do it better than anyone else, like landscape lighting. I think Jan and some of the, early pioneers just brought such an attention to detail and the beauty you could see in trees and landscaping. and we know that three quarters of our projects are lighting up architecture, so. So, you know, when we go to Italy, I'm always trying to push, like, let's light up a building, let's do something different. and then as the manufacturer, you know, it's like, how do I produce the tools to, you know, allow people to really, you know, unveil what they see in their mind to create the designs?

Tom Garber: I just call everything landscape lighting

Well, speaking of terminology, I just call everything landscape lighting. If I don't like the bridge, I'm just going to landscape light it.

I'm landscape lighting. The bridge. Yeah. So we had a bridge last year, but we never got to it. We lit up two buildings in Danville. The bridge was third. And it was like two in the morning. And she's like, you want to try and knock it out? Like, I've got to talk at 8 o' clock and, I'm gonna have to get climbing gear. I'm like, we're not gonna do that today. Just stop saying drop it. Did I say drop in?

It was probably me. I think. I think I call it a drop in bulb. I don't know. what's up, Tom Garber? Good to see you on here.

Hey, Tom.

Chris Applestot is Pat. The only manufacturer that's constantly using and designing with his own product.

I don't know. Nate was the pioneer on that. Nate Mullins. And, you know, he's a. I think Nate was a genius. did a lot of amazing things. So he kind of opened up the industry. I think it's, you know, we also go back to. That's where a lot of problems started, too, with the whole Chinese manufacturing was right about that time. so that's a whole interesting little thing that we're all going through.

Sterling Lighting has been battling tariffs for years

Well, let's talk about it. tariffs are something that shocked the world. And then everyone felt like we were going to get some relief. And then actually no one really knew. And like, what the heck? What's the most recent update? Well, has Sterling done. What are you guys planning on doing?

So, I mean, it's unparalleled with, like, not understanding what's going to happen. So it went from, you know, 29.5. Everybody got kind of set in with that. then when Trump made the announcement, you know, we're trying to figure out exactly what he means, because each time he says, like, he says, oh, 30% tariff, but he's not saying 30% plus 20% fentanyl, plus, you know, 10% for national tariff, plus plus 4.5% for another reason. so we had. We had a lot of shipments getting ready to come out or come over. We paused a bunch of them. We had probably nine months of inventory, eight months on some products, seven months. So what got really hard is we had one tariff come in at 145%. Our last tariff, it was, you know, like the container was like $260,000, but, you know, we're now paying 59.5% on every dollar we bring in. So, you know, we had like $130,000 in tariffs, where last year it was half that. So, you know, it gets tricky for us when you have inventory that's coming in at different levels. And, you know, it's just a product cost because we actually pay that before we even pay for some products at sometimes, because as soon as it hits the port, I think it's like three, four days later, it just comes out of a bank account. So we've been working for years and just a belief that I think we could bring products to America. Like, when I started off, everything was in China. All the brass, every. Everything was in China just the way it was. You know, I just started off looking for a lamp. not a drop in or a ball, but a lamp. And, I, you know, that's what I started off looking for. And then I found products and then like, this whole thing just snowballed into this crazy experience. but I always said from the beginning, like, I'd like to bring it back to America. And so Damien and I set out in 2020, 2021, when we had the last big disruption of making it America. We made some prototypes, still got a couple here. back then, made the electronics, did all this. But we just kept running into roadblocks. And just because we didn't know what we didn't know, like, didn't know that, you know, in brass molds, America's not that competitive. There's not as many brass molds out there. You know, we're competitive in other metals. Aluminum works incredibly competitive out in. But you know, in landscape lighting, aluminum's gotten such a bad name because of all the pot aluminum used with the recycled aluminum that it falls apart, chips and cracks. So I naturally just hated aluminum. And then I started researching more and finding out more about it. So, we set a goal right when the tariffs were at 145 and they're about to lift it, to say, like, let's start making some products and building things in America. So, you know, we wanted to treat our people. We have people in China that have been very good to us, you know, great partnerships, great. you know, they're like family to us. So we moved a lot of their products that there that were on ships to Canada and opened up a subsidiary, a separate company in Canada. So Canada's probably getting. If anybody here is in Canada, I think that shipment just came in this week. They're going to get better pricing than Americans get on, landscape lighting, which is good for them. Finally, Canada is getting a big win in the landscape lighting world. But Our goal is August 1st to start coming out with some American made products. So we're finalizing the electronics. We've gone through three or four different tests on them. We had 50 made. We're running those through a test. You know, I think we'll have a couple more tweaks on it and that should be ready. And then we're looking at an uplight, a large up light, a down light, a smaller, downlight, two well lights, a step light. So I have about nine or ten products on the drawing board right now and getting samples and playing with metals and different coatings. But, you know, my goal is to, I really want to build. I set this house last year. I want to build products that can be legacy products and legacy systems. And I've been Saying that for a long time, if, you know, Greg Matthews or yourself or, you know, I go out and do a project and I spend like three days just looking. I get the time to do it and someone's like, they're going to pay me and I'm just going to look at this project, look at everything. I could do it, do with it, and then I convince them to buy it, and then I install and go through and do everything perfectly. I want that product to last. So my goal is like, how do we build products that, 20 years later, they still look great? And there's a lot we've, we invested in the past, but we're getting really close to unveiling some of that. So that's exciting. and I think we, we can make electronics in America too. It's just harder, but it can be done.

Like with these new lines you're making and these new products, is it, is it a different name or is it still Sterling? Like, what about the products that are already out there? Like, if I'm an existing Sterling client, am I going to switch from the.

No, it'll be a Sterling brand. It'll probably be a brand inside of Sterling. I think Chris called it the 1776 brand. We've always internally called it the Americana, but I think that's taken by, you know, coffee shops or something. Someone's trademarked that already. but yeah, we'll. We'll look and see what the branding. I'm not asked. I mean, I named my company Sterling Lighting because we were in Sterling, Virginia. So, you know, names don't mean a.

Great deal to me, but not necessarily the name, but like the actual product. Are they still going to be. Are they going to be. Is like, you can buy. Yeah, you'll be able to buy us.

Like, you can choose what's the tariffs. Like, my biggest worries. Who'd make this big investment? And then Trump goes like, ah, just kidding.

Yeah.

And then you're like, now we're back to where we were. And I think that the, the industry, and this is my own two cents, was. Was at a point that we were going to see less and less American fixture designers and more just oversea designers, which isn't the end of the world.

Three Sterling lighting products are currently being made in Canada

They make some really good products. but I think there is something about a, Ah, you know, an American landscape lighting designer. You know, like we always sat there in the old days before I did this is like if I made a light, I wouldn't do this. You know, I think you've probably been on every install you look at a product going what the hell is this guy thinking when he made this?

So this was designed by an engineer, not a designer installer, you know.

And so I think there is value in that. And you know, if we can, if we can do that, that's great. But you know I, I do think there's an importance of having, you know, an American based manufacturing and we actually have three products being made in Canada. So we are helping the Canadian economy and try to build them up too. They need some manufacturing as well.

So I, so I guess I just want to make sure I understand there'll be like an American made option and still like a Chinese made option.

Yes. You have the Sterling, the Sterling line that's been around forever. You know this is like, this is the you know, little 500 lumen light that we're working at. so this just be another option. You know, it'll have. I'm trying to get the cost down as much as possible because I truly want it to be a success story of like we were able to deliver in America at a great cost. but then I also have all my wish lists. Like you know we've our best chip right now is 99 CRI. these are all 99 plus CRI. They have higher R values. The fidelity is better, the saturation is better. So it's trying to get to the term human centric lighting so it mimics the sun as close as possible. so that's what I'm working on. So I use my wish list of that and to build a product last forever and then ideally I could keep it at a good cost. But that's always the challenge.

Yeah. What are you anticipating? Like you've got the, you got your pre tariff pricing.

Yep.

Now you're at the, at tariff pricing. is it going to be the same? Like what would it be higher?

It depends. I mean one of the challenges is molds, getting molds done. In America, if we're going to mass produce molds are better than CNC machine, just keeping costs at a lower rate. But in overseas you get a mold done for $30,000. In America, that same mold, I think we just got quoted like $270,000. So if it's like one product you're making, that's something that's pretty doable. You know, for me I don't have that much money. So when I go I want to make 10 products. You know, building 10 molds at $3 million for something that the tariff could go away is always like, you know, just trying to figure out and balance, like, what makes sense, what doesn't make sense, and are we going to make a right decision, or am I going to screw everything up? So always the challenge, and I sit up at night just trying to figure it out, and Damien and I sit around talking a lot about, you know, the decisions we're making, if we're making the right ones. And, you know, I say kind of like your beginning talk. It's like, I've always found that if you take that first step and start walking into something, that other opportunities open up. It's like when we pause and we don't do that, that, it's that, that scary stuff of like, should I do this? Should I not do it? And you take that first step, it may not work out the way you thought it was going to. Just like. Like, we tried to make American products three years ago. It didn't work out. But then all this happened. I'm like, all right, well, we have three years experience of screwing this up, so, you know, maybe this time we're going to get it right. You know, we're. We're doing everything we can. We. I've gone and visit college professors, I've talked to engineers. We've gone all over the place.

So that's cool, man. Congrats. It takes a lot of courage to do that. We talked about that. Like you said in the beginning, courage over comfort. and I. I do love lighting for so many different reasons. But just as you were talking, I'm envisioning myself holding a lantern, and it's completely dark out there, and I'm like, I want to go this way, but my fear is holding me back. Like, I don't know. But as soon as I take a step forward, I can see further into the darkness. And now I can see, oh, there's snakes over there. Don't go that way. Or, hey, it worked out, I'm going to keep going. And I think that's why America is so great, is there's so much innovation because there's people like you that are willing to take risks. You are willing to fell before for three years that you're now rolling that into this to be part of the success plan. So it's a. It's a huge deal, man.

I think it goes back a lot to. I was part of a, franchise system for my first 10 years. Like, two years, 12 years, two years at the headquarters. And, then the next thing was, I was I was a franchisee, and the franchise, like, it just kind of all fell apart. It went crazy. Like, 86 franchises to 39 franchises in two years. The top. Top 10 franchises all left. But I remember I got to a point, and it was like my contract was coming to an end. It was very adversarial, and I just had to make a decision. Do I burn the boat and, see what happens, or. And. Or do I just go back in line and keep doing what I've been doing? And I remember telling my wife, like, we're going to burn the boat here. They're going to spend every bit of money they can to put me out of business, which they. They tried to. And it was just like, going out there and going like, let's see what happens, you know, so we did that. We made it through it. Took two years. And then all of a sudden, I had independence. I was like a free man.

Sterling Lighting opened up a whole new avenue for me creatively

I was like. I went from, like, I hate doing lighting because I just was stuck. I wasn't doing well, to now all of a sudden, I got a rebirth on life to like, well, what are the possibilities now? We've got Sterling Lighting going. We're, you know, I'm becoming a better designer. and so, you know, it just opened up a whole new avenue. But I do think, you know, there's going to be points in everybody's business that you have to burn the ship. The Cortez, analogy, where it's like, there's no going back. And I think, like, so often people have, you know, one foot in, one foot out, and they're going back and forth, and it's like, if you're going to do it, just do it. Otherwise, don't waste your time.

Well said. I love it.

You rebranded your lighting company Enlightened three years ago

all right. I wanted to shift gears here as we kind of wrap up the show, but still, something really important. how long ago did you rebrand, today Loom for your design. Design and installation company?

I think we started it three years ago, and we launched it. took us a full year. You know, one of the hardest things in lighting is that every name's been taken, every name's trademarked. So I had Enlightened. I found out there was a trademark in it. Like a guy down in Florida, probably nicest guy in the world. I probably could have called him and asked him, but I didn't know what my plans were. I didn't know how big, you know, enlightened was going to be. And so we had helped somebody build a enlightened Location down in Virginia Beach. J.T. hale, great guy. Just got back fishing with him. And, I said, well, if we expand any further, we're going to get in trouble. Or we could. Or, like, let's say I get 10 years in and I want to sell the business. If it's already trademark and I get a lawsuit, then, you know, I'm going to have to rebrand at the worst time. So we just bit the bullet and said, if we're going to do it, let's just do it all. And so we looked at. Looked at every lighting company out there. You know, everybody had the same things. Trees, stars, moons, starbursts. Like, you know, mine was a. When I was on a path, I Starburst.

it wasn't a spotlight or a path light.

It was not. No. I came. Came from olp and they always had a path light. I'm like, I'm not doing a path light.

Yeah.

so we looked at it and said, let's try and do something different. We came up with Delume, which I heard six different names, and that was my least favorite one when I heard it. But then I kept saying of the names, and I had so many people, like, I like that Daylum name. Like, really, I hate that name, that it didn't make sense to me. I'm like, it's day. And then we just started talking it out, walking through, like, if you could take that setting setting sun and you could transform it into, like, the evening hours of hanging out, that's what we came up with. But the transition was hard, you know, so I've seen a couple, like, people posting and I. I would never post my things on. I don't have the confidence to go like, what do you think of my design? Or what do you think of my logo? Because you just have. Everybody just gives you shit about it. So I'm like.

I was like, you never asked me. I'm offended. Like, I didn't get to tell you why I didn't like your logo.

You didn't like it at first, did you? Because I remember you said, like, I didn't like that. But it kind of grew on me after a while.

Well, I. Honestly, I Like when I. When I first heard daylum, I was like, I thought of like a Google. I'm like, who? Like, who would ever say yes to Google? Yeah, but now it's like, everyone says Google like, multiple times a day. It's like, it's just a new word. And they haven't seemed to have a problem Making money either. So, yeah. Yeah.

And so that's why we tried to go away from a descriptive name and just go with something, you know, knowing I'd have to put a lot more into marketing to make that name stick into people's minds. But if it did, I could own the Internet space on it. And so, you know, the hard thing is not knowing. All the different things that I had to change was like, oh, I gotta change my business cards, my letterhead, my trucks, my signs. Like, everything had to change. Mike Long did a much better job than I did because he's like. It took me, like, three weeks and I was done. I was like. I was like, eight months later still working on, like, handing somebody an enlightened closing folder. And I'm like, we got to change that and explain what that is. So it's a transition. It was hard. I don't recommend it, but I think your brand is important, and the sooner you start on working, you know, not only like your brand, but also, like, who you are as a company, what's your identity, you know, what is it that motivates you, all those things, and you building that out with your team so everybody's on the same page, like, this is who we are. And so that's what it really was. Just another moment to sit down and really contemplate, like, what are we trying to do by waking up every morning and doing this more than just putting in lights.

That's awesome.

Now that you're a couple years in, have you noticed a change

So, I mean, now that you're a couple years in, you made it through the hard part. I mean, I don't know, you did it for, I guess, different reasons, but so now you have that freedom and flexibility. You have the Runway ahead of you. But have you. Have you noticed a change in the way your company culture is? Have you noticed a change with your interaction with your clients, or.

I think I'd helped company culture clean things up a little bit. You know, we went through, like, website, and we've been still building that out. And the social media, that's always just a mission that we're trying to do is produce the right content. You know, I want to be open and transparent with customers. So we put, like, you know, here's a project, here's the cost of it. It was between 35 and. I don't put the exact number, but, you know, 35 to 50,000 for this project. And so I'm trying to, you know, weed out more customers and really give people more information. River, pools was one that I took a lot of Information from which they did a great job. Like, how much does a pool cost? If I'm looking at a pool, it's like I could pretend to look at everything. But my number one question I'm looking at is how much does a pool cost? And so rather than beating around the bush and like, wait till the sales guy comes out, it's like, pool's gonna be $200,000. Like, okay, well, now I have something to work. Like, I might not do it now, but I have something to work with. So I want to do the same thing in lighting where it's just like, you know, this, there's different options and different levels. You know, I pick out four to five different levels of lighting, that people are going to spend money on and just tell people this is what it's going to be, depending on what you want. So then you may have only a two acre property, but it's landscaped well. So established trees can have a lot more lights on it than small little 12 foot maple trees.

I love that. I love it. I mean, honestly, the number one thing people want to know, it doesn't matter how good, how much you think they value your design. They might at some point, through your process. Right. But they just want to know how much, how much is this thing going to cost?

And do you have the confidence to slide that table, that paper across the table? I m mean, I had to call Damian this about three years ago. We had a project in Birmingham and It was like 160,000. And I remember, I'm like, I know these people have money, like, but I'm nervous presenting this and I shouldn't be. And he's like, you know, think of the upkeep on their property. Like, they're probably spending $15,000 a month on upkeep. This is just another invoice. And I walked in, first thing customers said was like, give me the price. I'm like, well, let me go through. He's like, just tell me what it is. I'm like, $160,000. It's like, okay. And he got quiet. He's like, I knew you're gonna shock me. I didn't think it was going to be that much because their previous job was like 40, 000.

did you get it?

Yeah, yeah. We had to go back and forth like four times, which was. That's what I didn't like. You're better at closing on the spot. Well, at least, at least the legend of the led.

Yeah, exactly. No one will really know back in.

The day, if you would have seen me.

The thing is, I think I should clarify something because I. I see things like being said. We just had someone that posted in the group and they're like, they felt bad. They're for. They're like, celebrating. Like, I just closed my. My biggest job so far. $20,000.

Yeah.

65 fixtures. But they're like, you know, I. I know I probably didn't charge as much as I should have. Ryan Lee, they tagged me and I'm like, no, like, you shouldn't feel bad for, like, doing a good thing. Like, even though I am for for profit business, there's times where, like, I think he was like, a little bit over 300 bucks a lot. I'm like, dude, for you, you don't have the overhead that a day loom has. Like, you're. You're doing great. Like, that's freaking awesome, you know, so. And same thing with closing on the spots. Like, I speak to, like, the average deal. Like, if you're gonna show up to someone's house and the average deal is 10, $12,000. I, yes, I will go to battle all day long. Like, just give them the freaking price. Let's go. But if we're talking $150,000, like, there is a different process to that. So I think I need to, like, clarify to, like, I'm usually talking about the average. Just like, you know, someone wants the front of their house lit. You probably don't have to pray about the design. You probably can just, like, put some lights on the house and trees and it's okay. Like, just tell them it's ten grand, get it done. And if you get there and you have to add a couple lights, then do that.

Yeah, there is a difference in it. It is a little more of a process, but we do get in our own minds. and I don't care if you're like, you're newer and it's first time sending a $30,000 bid out and you're just going like, I can't believe someone's going to spend $30,000 on lighting. Or it's a $350,000 bid. Like, we will figure out ways to sabotage ourselves unless we, like, mentally keep ourselves strong. And, you know, some people are more gifted at that. But I think that that is one of our big challenges. We have.

Well, and it's crazy, like, what. What community has done. We just had another guy.

Greg Matthews started his lighting business three months ago and now has seven-figure jobs

I was just trying to look up when this was. It was. I think it was just last Week. you know, my largest job I ever did, I had my lighting business for 12 years. Largest job was $150,000. And I thought, oh, my gosh, like that. I just thought that was like the biggest thing ever. And the problem is when we are these lone wolf, when we're on our own, we don't know what we don't know. And had I known that Greg Matthews could sell like a four, hundred thousand dollars job, he's working on like seven figure jobs. Like, I'm pretty competitive person, so I would have been like, wait, you can do that? Like, I didn't know you could do that. But now that I know, I'm gonna go get one of those, you know. And so this guy, he just started like, his business three months ago, and he just closed. $154,000 job. I'm like, you're already better than me three months in. Like, what the heck? Like, how's this possible? It's because of belief. It's because you're part of this community. It gives you strength, it gives you confidence, and, and the tips, the tricks, the strategies, everything. So, it's so cool to see, like, how much advancement can happen through these communities.

Well, when I started my lighting career, I was with Tom Fenig, and the average job in our company in Charlotte, North Carolina was like $1,900. And they made a huge deal because I broke the average being 3,000. Like, can you imagine if all these jobs would come in at $3,000? It's like you look at it and laugh now because you're like, nineteen hundred dollars was the average job and you had to go out and do a nighttime demo. Now it's like, that could be a service call.

Yeah, right.

Maybe our money was worth more back then, but it still was like, yeah, the elevation. But Jan Moira was at the same time doing a 400, 000 project in Chicago and going, all right. She saw a different vision than I did. And it like, you could go pure production, you can go pure design, and you pick out a couple projects a year. You know, personal. I've just tried to find a balance of, like, how can I provide high level of service and installs and design for a customer, but give the option to go, you know, we're doing a country club right now. And you, know, she said it was funny because I came in with a $300,000 plan and she's like, your competitor came in with Mr. 16 lamps, telling her why one lamp is better than the Next I was like for a design of a golf course, like who cares what the product is at this point? Like I haven't even talked about that yet.

Yeah, that's cool.

Sterling is giving away two path lights and two design assistance programs

I totally forgot and I forgot before I forgot that we're. You're giving away. Sterling is going to give away two. are we still down? Are you going to give away two indelible 27 flights too indelible.

So we changed our path. we're rebranding things all the time. We got some different things going on with Canada with Americ. Indelible is a specifier line which the indelible path light is moving into that which Sterling customers are have available. I've loved that path light. That was one of my projects of designing something a little different because I, I've never liked the L shaped path light because it just gives too short of a spread of. Doesn't spread light well too much of a glare on the bottom. So we designed a number of things with that. It's 316 stainless steel. It's PVD coated. PV. PVD is your best coding out there. you could get a custom coding. So yeah, we're giving away two of those and then two of our design rendering programs which I know for our Sterling customers when they've used the design rendering program they have they've averaged about a 75% closing percentage according to our stats. but that's. It took me two years. Everyone's like what program do you use? What are you doing here? Like I just hired some architects, you know and then spent a year training them on what, what I do in lighting design so they can take a project and build it out.

Okay, so I didn't run. We're going to do two path lights and two free design assistance program.

So anybody who's made comment.

Well, so here's what, here's what we're gonna do. It just, it just we were trying to figure out. Okay, I forgot to do a link. I forgot to like how do we give stuff away in this modern digital age. Here's what we got. So Secret Summit is coming up in September. Ah, I meant to look it up. September 25th. 26th in West Palm beach and then 27th. So it's really all kind of together. 25th through 27th. 25th. 26th is Secret Summit, West Palm Beach. The 27th is Greg Matthews Luxury Illumination 10 Year Anniversary Party. And you're not going to want to miss either of these. and historically up until this year you have to be a member of Landscape Lighting Secrets to come to Secret Summit. what we're doing this year is we want to test this out, is inviting, all members of Lighting Academy as well to Secret Summit. So if you're like, well, I don't really like Ryan Lee, I don't want to join Secret Summit, but I do like Patrick Harder's and I want to be part of Lighting Academy, then you can join Lighting Academy. And then when you do that, you can come, to Secret Summit. So here's what we're going to do. If you, go on, we'll say this. The first two people, the first person to get their ticket to Secret Summit, and, you know, just forward me an email supportionlee coaching. com. just forward me your receipt that you bought your ticket. We'll give you the two free path lights. and then the, the second person will get the, the first or second. We'll figure out one. Someone's going to get the two free path lights. Someone's going to get the design assistance. Or I guess we could let them choose maybe, Right?

I do. First path bites. It's more expensive.

Okay.

Put some randomness in the whole thing as well. Yeah, I like it.

You don't know if you're the first or second. You're like, well, I'm gonna wait till someone else buys it and then I'll go. so the first two people to, buy their ticket and you can just go to secretssummit. com to get your ticket. and so again, if you are in Landscape Lighting seek, it doesn't matter if you're in or out, but if you're part of Landscape Lighting Secrets or Lighting Academy, you're invited. So if you're not quite ready to join the best community out there, but you want to be in Lighting Academy, that's totally fine. You can do that and you can come to Secret Summit as soon as you get your ticket. Forward that to me and, mention that you, want the free path lights. And the first person will get the two free path lights. The second will get the two free, ah, design assistant for your project. So that's awesome. Thanks for doing that.

Yep.

Well, dude, thanks so much for coming on here.

Not, doing three hours today.

We could. I. I mean, you want to do an elon? You want to do or not elon? Yeah. No, Joe, Rogan.

Yeah.

I'm like, how do people listen that long? Like, I don't. I don't do they.

If I'm out in the field or something. I like podcasts, so I will listen.

So, yeah, I guess if we, if we just have good combo. Like, like don't hang up. We're still here. Like, no, look, wait till you hear what Pat's gonna say next.

Yeah. Leave some, some drops that make people want to hear more, but I, I don't really have much more.

Pat says he caught 38 pounds on a fishing trip this week

I think I'm talking about my fishing trip. I, I. Did I tell you about it?

No.

So I went fishing with jt. It was for.

Oh, actually. Yeah, you were, you were on the drive. You were going. Oh, yeah.

So at first, half hour, caught a fish. It was 38 pounds. Like, all right, well, this has a chance. Get into the dock, put it in. We're in second place. I'm all excited. Five minutes left, I'm already talking trash. It's 18, 000 bucks or so for the winner. You know, for second place at all these side bets and everything. We're in. Then all of a sudden, five boats come rolling in with bigger fish. Bam. bam. They're like, damn it.

You're like tenth.

I was all right. I know. It was like eighth place. Our. All my trash talking just went away. I was like, that sucks.

Works dang well, you know, official caught a fish, but.

Yeah.

Yeah. You still caught a big fish.

Yeah. We're going. I'm going this week actually. We've got some property, just dirt right now, but by a lake. It's not on a lake. And man, it's so fun. We catch trout there every time. And I swear the fish keep getting bigger and it. Since I never show pictures like, you know, there, you know, if you're a real fisherman, they're huge. They're massive.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, good. You're taking the family out.

Yeah, it's actually my. So my son's been like, can I take my friends? Can I take my friends? So, I'm actually just soloing. it. Lindsay's got girls Camp. Like our church has an annual girls camp she's in charge of. So she's. I'm helping with, with that first. And then, Max and like three, three or four of his buddies. I'm taking them for the weekend, so that'll be fun.

Nice.

Heck, yeah. Well, thanks again for coming on here, Pat. Thanks for everything you do for the Lighting community in. As part of our organization and you know, externally, just everything that you do. It's always nice to, connect with fellow lighting nerds. and geek out on this stuff, so appreciate everything you do, and hopefully everyone listening will do the hard part. It's fun to listen, but, it's hard to implement. So make sure you take some of these nuggets that, Pat shared and go implement them in your business.

Yep. Make things happen.

All right, sounds good. Thanks, Pat. Have a good one.

Thank you.

All right, see everybody. We'll see you next week on episode 200. two or one? I'm not sure. Yeah.